By Charles Krohn

Best Defense department of Vietnam War analysis

I found the place where we buried 11 U.S. soldiers in February 1968, improving chances of my battalion escaping encirclement undetected. Despite expectations of some traumatic flashbacks, I found the experience more provocative than distressful.

I thought about our dead soldiers and former comrades, but my sorrow hasn't changed from then until now. Time and distance seem irrelevant.

Reflecting later at the hotel in Hue with the Red Flag flying in the background from the Citadel, I thought about how much the Vietnam I knew during Tet '68 changed physically. Maybe it changed other ways as well, or perhaps I was too unsophisticated then to see the Vietnamese as I do now. One thing's for sure: The nuances have changed completely. Not only are there no Americans on the roads, in the air or in the fields, doing what Americans do, the Vietnamese seem perfectly in control of their own destinies. Maybe they were then too, but we were too driven to notice. Accomplishing the mission was everything.

This makes me think about the American Way of War -- maybe best expressed as "you move over, we're taking over." Despite our good intentions, sometimes I think our various invasions are unwise, unproductive, and indecisive. If we had provided material assistance, I suspect the South Vietnamese would have made a good showing of themselves without our fighting the fight for them or looking over their shoulder to make sure they were following our doctrine, rather than their indigenous impulses.

Portraying the Ia Drang fight as a success for our side and an NVA failure may be one of the greatest mistakes in the history of warfare. But it set the pace, for better or worse. Westmoreland was wrong about pinning his hopes for victory on body counts and attrition, because the end result was to strengthen the North Vietnamese while sapping the strength of our allies in the South. Simply put, I ride with Sorley when he makes the argument that Westy's strategy dragged us backward in time. The only thing to celebrate about the battle at Ia Drang was valor.

Given Westmoreland's strategy, our response to Tet '68 was predictable, and perhaps the choices were few, but the die was already cast.

Even now we are trying to influence outcomes in Afghanistan by sending in more trainers. Is this effective or does Afghanistan merely accept our presence to leverage the resources we provide in hopes of stabilizing Karzai's government in Kabul? 

Looking back, I think the way we entered the Vietnam War was horribly flawed by hubris, perhaps a defining American quality, and perhaps connected to notions of exceptionalism. Surely the way Ambassador Bremer tried to manage the fiasco in Iraq adds weight to this argument. 

Perhaps we invaded Iraq with an insufficient force because size does matter when one country invades another, especially with plans to rebuild the nation. But there's something to be said for objectivity and proportionality after the shock of invasion fades.

Looking around me now, I see the Vietnamese building their country with energy unparalleled in my experience. I doubt Ho Chi Minh had any influence over the destiny of the country, other than to unite it. My private wish is that I had the historical depth to compare the final outcome of our civil war with theirs. 

Charles A. Krohn is the author of The Lost Battalion of Tet. Now retired to Panama City Beach, Florida, he served in Iraq in 2003-2004 as public affairs adviser to the director of the Infrastructure Reconstruction Program, and later as public affairs officer for the American Battle Monuments Commission.

U.S. Army

 

CHARLIE SHERPA

11:46 AM ET

March 12, 2012

An old soldier revisits a battleground ...

I appreciate the author's insights, and his willingness to sift old battlegrounds for larger truths. I've occasionally found others, who, in various ways, have also taken it upon themselves to revisit the geographies, military units, and/or peoples they encountered during the wars of their youth. I'm curious: Does the author (or anyone else) have suggestions as to what such a practice might be called?

 

TOM RICKS

1:54 PM ET

March 12, 2012

Great question

Any answers?

 

CHARLIEFORD

2:07 PM ET

March 12, 2012

OSPCM . . .

"on-site participant conflict memory" suggest itself . . .

 

CHARLIEFORD

2:11 PM ET

March 12, 2012

Or maybe PCOSPCME . . .

ie, "post-conflict on-site participant conflict memory-exercise," perhaps? Of course, we may need to distinguish between "unit-activated" and "individually-activated" post-conflict on-site participant conflict memory-exercises . . .

 

TOM RICKS

2:23 PM ET

March 12, 2012

I think Joshua Chamberlain

I think Joshua Chamberlain wrote somewhere about re-visiting the Gettysburg battlefield many decades later. I wonder if he has a term for it in there somewhere.
Best,
Tom

 

CHARLIE SHERPA

2:59 PM ET

March 12, 2012

Thanks, Tom!

I'll look for the potential Chamberlain cite. In news content and advertising, I've seen references to "memorial tours," "peace tours," "personal history tours," even "old soldiers' tours." Some of those terms, however, seem potentially charged with politics of one sort or another.

I've also seen veterans' travel to current conflict zones derided as "war tourism." That's hard to argue with, sometimes..

The practice may not necessarily be tied to geography. I know one Vietnam veteran, for example, who embedded as media with his former platoon guidon, which was then deployed to Iraq. "It made my PTSD worse," he said later.

It seems that there should be a unique term for this, an activity that seems to be a mix of pilgrimage, terrain-walk, and "a road-march down memory lane."

Of course, I may have watched George C. Scott play Patton once too many times, too. ("Two thousand years ago. I was here!")

 

PYORTOR

3:15 PM ET

March 12, 2012

Military self-archaeology

I would call it *not* nostalgia, but military self-archaeology.

Everyone, it seems, does an archaeology of one's life when approaching the seventh and eighth decades. Maybe it's existential anxiety; maybe it's just trying to make sense of what seems to have just happened---life. Military people have that early life more vividly imprinted than others do.

From what I can tell from my military relatives who suited up for the big one--father, uncles, and one aunt--they all started doing this in their early to mid seventies.

Beside tracking down his own ships and shipmates, my father also traced and excavated the war odyssey of one his elder brothers who was not alive to do it for himself, an infantryman from whom we had a parcel full of V-mails. In fact, it was my Dad's last project before he died, to write a history of his brother's long service in North Africa and Europe, never coming home until the end.

My Dad also served in the occupation of Japan for two or three years, and we traced his journeys through that country several times when he was in his sixties.

 

ROBERT BLACK

12:25 AM ET

March 13, 2012

Time is both circular and linear

The bell does not ring backward.

 

CHARLIE SHERPA

12:30 AM ET

March 16, 2012

Stop me if you've heard this one before ...

The conversation has moved on, I know, but, for the record, I thought I'd take this opportunity to thank those who offered their thoughts on what to call an old soldier's revisitation of war.

Here's where I ended up:
http://www.redbullrising.com/2012/03/ruck-march-down-memory-lane.html

I think it also incorporates some "what deployment means" conversations in which I participated on Best Defense a few months ago.

Thanks, Tom, for creating the exchange of ideas and information.

 

CHARLIEFORD

12:38 PM ET

March 12, 2012

Thanks for this.

The more I reflect on Vietnam, the sadder and more unnecessary the whole thing seems.

There they are, still socialist, but now we have jointr naval manouvers with them. We could have skipped the whole war thing, and just done that.

But that's not how it is when you're in the middle of history, is it? Though, a little imagination sure would be in order.

For the bottom line, over to you Mr. Stewart: "Most importantly, we must remind our leaders that they always have a choice."

 

GOLD STAR FATHER

12:49 PM ET

March 12, 2012

How Often...

do I lament about " We could have skipped the whole war thing...." How many instances can we show where enemies become friends, moreso then just economic partners. Can not the aspect of just letting people's destinies transverse time and history while we wait for the better opportune time to declare proferred trading partnership?

Alas, too much to ask. Most likely too nieve to expect. But Switzerland and Portugal seemed to have pulled it off.

 

GEO FRICK FRACK

12:46 PM ET

March 12, 2012

Thanks

This is one of the best items that I've read on Tom's blog. History and expereience have not moderated the American mania for "the mission" or "interests", as well as the disregard for local wants and practices. Sad for all the people who've died or led lesser lives as a result of hubris.

 

64DRIVER

1:09 PM ET

March 12, 2012

Yep

The author captured it precisely- Hubris and American Exceptionalism. Those two linked qualities explain just about everything that has gone wrong.

 

KUNINO

4:27 PM ET

March 12, 2012

An overdue discovery

Mr Krohn now seems to recognize that the Vietnamese are, well, people, a truth not all that clear to him during his initial service there. A parallel with Iraq and Afghanistan presents itself to the thinking mind.

I find troubling where Mr Krohn points his finger to where he thinks things went wrong in Iraq recently with his "Perhaps we invaded Iraq with an insufficient force because size does matter when one country invades another, especially with plans to rebuild the nation." Was that where the only mistake was made? Not enough soldiers sent to Iraq? Wasn't it true that there were no real plans to rebuild Iraq? Just some hazy, ill-informed and poorly executed notions?

 

CHARLESKROHN

6:25 AM ET

March 13, 2012

Iraq errors

Kunino, there were many mistakes made during our Iraq invasion. I served there for a few months as the public affairs advisor to the director of the Infrastructure Reconstruction program. Tom Ricks hits the ball squarely with his book Fiasco. The most flagrant thing I found was our failure to inform the Iraqis why we invaded their country, displaced their government and established an occupation authority. Please re-read what I just wrote, because this is hugely important.

The fault was that for the first year we only broadcast our messages on a terrestial TV system inherited from Saddam, although many/most Iraqis went to satillite reception as soon as Saddam lost control. They got their news from Al Jazzera. The message from AJ was that we invaded to steal their oil, demonstrate contempt for Islam, etc. The gist is that for a year we never really told the Iraqis why were there or what we were doing.

Other major errors included lack of planning to capture all the ammo and munitions sites, esentially by-passing them. This allowed terrorists to help themselves, and you know how that story ends. Some effort was made later to seal the sites, but much later.

 

CHARLESKROHN

6:26 AM ET

March 13, 2012

Iraq errors

Kunino, there were many mistakes made during our Iraq invasion. I served there for a few months as the public affairs advisor to the director of the Infrastructure Reconstruction program. Tom Ricks hits the ball squarely with his book Fiasco. The most flagrant thing I found was our failure to inform the Iraqis why we invaded their country, displaced their government and established an occupation authority. Please re-read what I just wrote, because this is hugely important.

The fault was that for the first year we only broadcast our messages on a terrestial TV system inherited from Saddam, although many/most Iraqis went to satillite reception as soon as Saddam lost control. They got their news from Al Jazzera. The message from AJ was that we invaded to steal their oil, demonstrate contempt for Islam, etc. The gist is that for a year we never really told the Iraqis why were there or what we were doing.

Other major errors included lack of planning to capture all the ammo and munitions sites, esentially by-passing them. This allowed terrorists to help themselves, and you know how that story ends. Some effort was made later to seal the sites, but much later.

 

KUNINO

4:29 PM ET

March 13, 2012

Recollecting the scene of the accident -- Iraq --

Mr Krohn initially criticized the cabin color treatment of the vehicle mainly responsible. In his follow-up remarks he now discusses the vehicle's hub caps and tool kit. The US Army invaded and took Iraq with a remarkably small butcher's bill. This is a lasting tribute to the army's war fighting capabilities, and also to the weakness of the Iraqi army -- usually an overlooked factor.

Lies and vanity provoked the Iraq adventure initially and staggering incompetence, blindness, in the US military and civilian leaderships following that initial military victory multiplied the invasion death toll of Americans by a factor of about 40. The augmented Krohn list of deficits does little to explain that. Similarly, the recent Krohn from-the-hip claim that the current government of Vietnam is better than the Obama administration does little to suggest that the writer has much of a sense of scale. Not really from the hip, I suppose. From a luxurious air conditioned hotel room in what used to be named Saigon; shallowly; and fueled in part, he boasted, by duty-free hooch.

 

64DRIVER

4:32 PM ET

March 12, 2012

Chamberlain- Dedication Ceremony at Little Round Top

"In great deeds, something abides. On great fields, something stays. Forms change and pass; bodies disappear; but spirits linger, to consecrate ground for the vision-place of souls. And reverent men and women from afar, and generations that know us not and that we know not of, heart-drawn to see where and by whom great things were suffered and done for them, shall come to this deathless field, to ponder and dream; and lo! the shadow of a mighty presence shall wrap them in its bosom, and the power of the vision pass into their souls.

"This is the great reward of service. To live, far out and on, in the life of others; this is the mystery of the Christ,--to give life's best for such high sake that it shall be found again unto life eternal."

I read it to everyone I take to the hallowed ground.

 

DILBERT DOGBERT

11:19 PM ET

March 12, 2012

Memory Lane

My Viet Nam tour was short - only a couple of weeks looking at M113's that had hit land mines. May June 1967.
Didn't get shot at or even hear gunfire. What I do remember was the body bags at the airport.
I read somewhere that Uncle Ho was at the WW1 conference and asked for self determination for Viet Nam. Also read of a statement of Uncle Ho that it was better to eat French shit for 100 years than Chinese shit for 1000. Wonder if that is a real quote. If true it would have been a good guide for our involvement in Viet Nam.
A friend, a pilot, told me of flying French soldiers back into Viet Nam at the end of WW2. Lots of missed chances in history.

 

RVN SF VET

4:59 AM ET

March 13, 2012

COLONIAISM

It would be interesting to examine how many of our post-WWII conflicts took place in former English and French colonies. The way the British divided and conquered left the world with religiously and tribally divided nations. And in some cases, such as Iran, artificially constructed states. A related problem is that post WWII, we initially sided with the colonial masters. At least the Philippines were left unaltered.

 

RVN SF VET

5:14 AM ET

March 13, 2012

Dien Bien Phu

Our "Black Air Force*" flew C-119s to resupply of Dien Bien Phu. They probably flew many other missions as well. When it was clear to the French that Dien Bien Phu was an impending disaster, the French asked Eisenhower to nuke the Viet Minh surrounding the complex. After some thought, Eisenhower said no.

*These were Air Force pilots who had been "sheep-dipped" to work for the CIA. The crews had been flying missions in the Far East for a very long time. I met a bunch of them living in a villa two doors down in Saigon. They invited us over for drinks so that they could check us out. That was the first time I saw and handled a Danish Madsen '53 which they prefered.

 

GRANT

5:42 AM ET

March 13, 2012

In re. to RVN SF VET: Iran

In re. to RVN SF VET: Iran isn't an artificial state. You might be thinking of Iraq. As for conflicts, since the most significant conflicts the U.S was involved in after colonialism were in Asia, the Middle East and South America it seems reasonable to suppose that the majority of them were former colonies of the U.K and France.

In re. to Dilbert Dogbert: I'm not sure of the exact quote but it (if the writers can be believed) certainly did warn that the last time the Chinese occupied Vietnam they were there for a thousand years (which is a bit of oversimplification).

 

FG42

8:02 AM ET

March 13, 2012

Missed chances

Speaking of missed chances, are you aware of the OSS mission in 1945 to help Ho Chi Minh's guerilla group. Around 7 US soldiers parachuted into the forests north of Hanoi with the task of training and supporting the Viet Minh, the guerilla band led by Ho and Giap. The Americans worked right alongside the Viet Minh during the summer of 1945, and photos show them sitting with Ho, Giap, and others, all looking like a gang of pirates. During the frequent bull-sessions, they talked a lot with Ho, who spoke excellent English and who was very interested in learning about the American Revolution and American history. The OSS had sent reports back up the chain advisiing that while Ho was a communist, he seemed to be a nationalist first with the goal of gaining freedom from French rule.When WW2 ended, the OSS group marched with the Viet Minh into Hanoi, where Ho declared independence, only to see the French come back in force to try to crush the independence movement. Ho sent 2 or 3 letters to President Truman asking for American support, in line with Roosevelt's wartime speeches supporting freedom from colonial rule. Of course, the letters were never answered, and the US (seeing dominoes) instead started to support the French, as RVN SF VET describes below, and eventually picked up the Tar Baby from the French....and the rest is bitter history.

 

RVN SF VET

11:54 PM ET

March 13, 2012

WHOOPS!

As Gilda Radner used to say, "Nevermind!" Thank you Grant.

 

GRANT

5:42 AM ET

March 13, 2012

Considering that the American

Considering that the American Civil War was started by a portion of the nation choosing to secede due to a sense of marginalization and utter refusal to accept the idea of the end of slavery while the Second Indochina War was a war of unification due to a sense of nationalism and dislike for a government perceived to be illegitimate it would probably be better to look at the differences rather than the similarities.

 

QUANG

5:48 AM ET

March 13, 2012

Wow, never thought I'd read something like this here...

"If we had provided material assistance, I suspect the South Vietnamese would have made a good showing of themselves without our fighting the fight for them or looking over their shoulder to make sure they were following our doctrine, rather than their indigenous impulses."

 

WILLIEJOE

11:17 AM ET

March 13, 2012

@ Charles Krohn

Thank you for this reflection. A suggestion for a name would be Contemplative Soldiers Journey. It is a journey we all take at some point in our lives whatever our experience in life but the soldiers journey is unique in that they experience the raw fury of a fight with fear,death,loss and the overpowering drive to live and protect the lives of your buddies at a very young age. This is very different than the majority of their civilian contemporaries( except for tough urban and rural areas steeped in poverty) and can aid the nation as a whole to act to put greater restraints on the elected officials who vote to send us to war. It may be time to remove that power from their hands and assume that responsibility ourselves -say a two thirds majority vote of the citizens with the understanding that both a war tax and the activation of the draft are included in a vote to wage war.

 

64DRIVER

5:30 PM ET

March 13, 2012

(Col?) Krohn

Sir, thanks first off for your thought-provoking posts. Upon your return from your trip, I'd like to get in touch with you about a semi-related topic. I live not too far away from you as well. Best way to contact is email, so I'll throw it out there- cbowery@hotmail.com.
Regards,
Charles

 

MAXIMB

2:40 PM ET

March 22, 2012

I think that is the

I think that is the difference between Republicans and Democrats. They are more in line with party politics than ideology. Whereas conservatives and liberals are more in line with their ideology - despite party nonsense..

"Is rio orange war always forfait sans engagement inevitable ?"
MaximB

 

NORTONSEVERIN

12:31 AM ET

April 9, 2012

Beside tracking down his own

Beside tracking down his own ships and shipmates, my father also traced and excavated the war odyssey of one his elder brothers who was not alive to do it for himself, an infantryman from whom we had a parcel full of V-mails. In fact, it was my Dad's last project womenboots before he died, to write a history of his brother's long service in North Africa and Europe, never coming home until the end.

 

Thomas E. Ricks covered the U.S. military for the Washington Post from 2000 through 2008.

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