William Shkurti's Soldiering On in a Dying War: The True Story of the Firebase Pace Incidents and the Vietnam Drawdown is one of the more interesting books I've read in awhile.

Essentially, his argument is that while the U.S. Army in Vietnam had troubles in 1970-72, it wasn't nearly as bad as it has been portrayed. He makes his case well, with extremely fine-grained portrayals of units and combat at the time. (At one point, we even get an account done mortar round by mortar round.)

"There was a problem with drugs and fraggings," he concedes. "Motivation did become more difficult as the war wound down. People in the lower ranks were more willing to challenge authority. But what…these analyses overlook is how both officers and enlisted men, regardless of how they felt about the war, struggled but managed to hold it together without much help from anywhere else." 

But. But…the evidence he introduces in defense of the quality of the soldiers of the time frequently is hair-raising:

-- A squad ordered to set up a night ambush along a part of the Cambodian border crawling with both North Vietnamese and South Vietnamese units has six men who have never before been in combat? Yow. That's a recipe for fratricide, or losing the whole squad.

--Another question about leadership: A unit that had refused to go on patrol in an area because its members worried there were unmapped Claymore mines in the area finally is persuaded to go-and finds loads of Claymores. The lieutenant colonel commanding in the area reports around this time that morale is "uniformly high."

--Speaking of which, Shkurti assures the reader that "only 4.5 percent of Army soldiers in Vietnam GIs were hard-core heroin users." Only? You don't need all the soldiers in a unit to be ill-disciplined or stoned for the unit to go rotten. Imagine how one stoned guy, stumbling along, or laughing and jiving, could foul up a combat patrol. Or fall asleep on sentry duty. Let's see: 4.5 percent of a platoon is on heroin. Others are smoking dope. Some are ill-disciplined. Are you going to sleep well?     

Also, it doesn't seem right to me for the author to consider an incident as not a combat refusal if the order in question is subsequently rescinded (which both he and the Army of the time seem to think is just fine). What a great way for a commander to keep his unit record "clean" while letting his soldiers pick and choose their missions.

At times, the book felt to me like someone arguing an airline is a lot safer than it looks because only 10 or 15 percent of its planes crashed last year. Sure, 85 percent did just fine. But that is not what worries me. 

So why do I like the book? Because it made me think, on almost every page. It mounted a clear and consistent argument that made me re-examine the evidence and to re-consider what I think I know (and what I have written in the book I am working on). Also, while I disagree with a lot of the book, I got the sense that his heart is in the right place, and that matters to me. He is struggling to make sense of what happened in that war. So am I. We are all pilgrims on this road, boys.

Bottom line: This might be the best book I've read on the last part of the American involvement of the war (though it has been many years since I've read James McDonough's Platoon Leader, which I will go back and look at again soon).

 

GOLD STAR FATHER

4:46 PM ET

March 6, 2012

"Eerily Similar"

Interesting that this subject arises, but maybe not so surprising. The top SNCO in Europe fears for the US Army of today. The fear is that it will slide back to '75.

http://www.stripes.com/news/in-europe-top-sergeant-tells-senior-army-ncos-to-roll-up-their-sleeves-1.170664

Now, I'm a former Marine and with a well trained (read: beaten-in) sense of what a fighting organization is supposed to do, act, feel, obey, etc. I live in daily contact with nearby Big US Army base and speak nearly daily with son-in-law US Army E-5. I'm flabbergasted about the cottling, enlisted to officer relationships, retention of shitbirds (both enlisted and officer), superficial training, general lackadaisicalness, and great fear that any punishment or discipline will lead to an article 15 or court for the leader exercising the disipline.

Negative awe is all I can say

 

GOLD STAR FATHER

4:49 PM ET

March 6, 2012

Whoops

Make that "coddling". Cottling was someone else I used to know.

 

A SERVING OFFICER

5:01 PM ET

March 6, 2012

Sappers in The Wire

Tom,

I recommend SAPPERS IN THE WIRE by Keith W. Nolan. Disturbing story of the Army in 1971 and the name FSB Mary Ann will resonate with most professionals who were around during that time period. He passed away about three years ago only in his mid-40s, but he had published a pretty solid body of work on Vietnam over a 20 year period. His book RIPCORD is decent enough also on another bad event for the Army that was well known at the time and with in the Army but is lost today.

 

CMEYERGO

3:27 AM ET

March 7, 2012

Lost Battle at Ripcord

Yes, Firebase Ripcord was the true bottom for our Army in Vietnam. Four battalions of the 101st retreated under fire, leaving all equipment and few soldiers behind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fire_Support_Base_Ripcord

Our "biggest" lost battle of that war, which our Generals kept secret until 1985. Our soldiers' weren't to blame, but our Generals. At least they had the courage to cut and run before the base was overrun.

 

CHAL320

12:20 AM ET

March 8, 2012

FIRE BASE MARY ANN-PACE-RIPCORD

I am 2/3 through Soldeiring On In a Dying War." Fine book in my opinion.

The Firebase Mary Ann incident in my mind was a terrible breakdown of discipline as well as the unit getting away from basic fundamentals. Of course heads rolled to include if I recall correctly the Division Commander, Brigade Commander, and Battalion Commander. Isolated incidents of bravery kept it from being a total rout. I believe that MG Baldwin's son wrote a spirited and well reasoned defense of his father in Army Magazine right around the time of Desert Storm.

I fully understand Tom's concerns as to whether the action at FB Pace was a refusal or not. The official Army spin which appeared to be bought into by the major media outlets was that it was not a refusal as after balking, the order was rescinded, or the view of MG Wagstaff that there was no refusal because the soldiers later went on patrol. Unlike the NFL there is no do over but it's as if the Army sough a review and it overturned any talk of refusal.

As for Ripcord some fine soldiers were lost including CPT Donald'Ranger" Workman, and 1LT Bob Kalsu former Oklahoma Football lineman and member of the Buffalo Bills who was the lone NFL player to die in action in RVN if I am correct.

Leads one to wonder if our soldiers assisting in the present drawdowns will face attacks as we disengage? Many former colleagues I have spoken with feel the bad guys will wait us out and then go back to killing each other.

 

TYRTAIOS

6:39 PM ET

March 6, 2012

Guns, Claymores, and a bit more

Featured on the cover of the book displayed in the picture is a 175mm. It isn't a howitzer, and like naval guns of the era off shore, fired a high velocity, low trajectory projectile out to long range. I personally didn't like to be in the same grid square when calling for fire, because the rounds get a bit wobbly toward their maximum effective range. . .they will also skip off the ground on occasion.

Unmapped claymore mines? Ha! I once had an unmapped home made bobby trap consisting of a frag shoved in a c-ration can w/o the pin, attached to a trip wire to drag it out. . .we were short on claymores at the time.

Smoking backpack smack? We didn't have any of that either. . .but we had long tom Pall Mall five pack in c-ration boxes (no concern with dieing of lung cancer), that came in cases metal banded early-on, which we discovered the M-16's pronged muzzle flash suppressor could be used to break the band with.

I hope the above was constructive in some way, but it was a long time ago, and my mind is fading. . .incidentally, what happened? We were winning when I left? : o

 

XENOPHON

1:47 AM ET

March 7, 2012

Unmapped claymore mines?

Yes, my first thought too. When something this ridiculous is included in an article, it discredits the whole thing for me.

 

KUNINO

7:58 PM ET

March 6, 2012

Any Hackworth quotations in that book?

Sign of sincerity if there are. It could be that the military's finest achievement in SVN was one of its latest -- defeating the NVA-Cong aims of the surprise Tet offensive in straightforward battles to the death in several locations simultaneously. Gallantry was conspicuous and widespread. As the Vietnamese were to say soon thereafter, the American victory was general, but irrelevant; they were right.

Possibly Gold Star Father's excellent mind as displayed above was running along lines first set down by the greatest bear poet never to have won a Nobel Prize for literature. His honey-fueled masterwork was Cottleston Pie: as close to a haiku as can be expected from a bear:

Cottleston Cottleston Cottleston Pie,
A fly can’t bird, but a bird can fly.
Ask me a riddle and I reply
Cottleston Cottleston Cottleston Pie.

Cottleston Cottleston Cottleston Pie,
Why does a chicken? I don’t know why.
Ask me a riddle and I reply
Cottleston Cottleston Cottleston Pie.

Cottleston Cottleston Cottleston Pie,
A fish can’t whistle and neither can I.
Ask me a riddle and I reply
Cottleston Cottleston Cottleston Pie.

Best said out loud.

 

AWR

8:13 PM ET

March 6, 2012

175 was a modern howitzer

In Vietnam usage from 1966 on usually two 175mm SP (M107) were paired with two 8 inchers in a battery. The 8 inchers were very accurate up to 10,000 meters or so and the 175s could reach out to 30,000 meters with ever decreasing accuracy as noted.

If I remember correctly from 45+ years ago or so, the 175 was not used that much at very long range unless in an emergency situation since barrel life at max range (three bags of powder) was only about 300 rounds and changing barrels was complicated. Using only one bag of powder it could fire thousands of rounds in one barrel

Shell, when using max range, came out at supersonic speed and made a double bang as it broke sonic barrier and they were incredibly loud. They also had an unfortunate proclivity to blow the breaches off with nasty repercussions for the gun bunnies.

Nah - we lost and we were clearly losing as early as 1967 when I left.

 

CHARLIEFORD

3:00 AM ET

March 7, 2012

Hmm . . .

. . . reading list, filling up . . .

 

RVN SF VET

3:06 AM ET

March 7, 2012

CLAYMORE - TRIPWIRE INITIATION - COMPLEX

Most of us think of the Claymore the way we used it - command detonated. Therefore, I thought a Claymore minefield as preposterous. After reading the following, I merely think it to be unlikely and complex: http://tinyurl.com/7db7lmh .

To see how much an NCO might have to memorize for their competitive boards see: http://tinyurl.com/6r7shev .

This also shows what many of our Active Duty Army contributors complain about: all the bullshit, PC classes cluttering-up their training schedules robbing them of the time needed for combat-oriented training. It is definitely time for the revolution!

 

TYRTAIOS

2:10 PM ET

March 7, 2012

re: RVN SF VET

Xenophon may have misinterpreted my remark about claymores. I was thinking back to a TAOR we were operating in, where there had been reports of claymores set-out, command detonated, only to find them in the morning facing aft.

I decided to introduce the VC to a new technique with the c-ration can, frag, trip wire home made booby trap. When the patrol was debriefed upon returning, it was pointed-out that what I had created in essence was an unmapped minefield.

My SWAG on the author's comment is that subject claymore emplacement, either never existed to begin with, or the schematic was purposely destroyed so they'd have an excuse not to patrol in that particular area. . .Sounds like his mob had no faith in their leadership, and became a bunch of sand baggers.

Too bad, with the right leadership, to include taking an officer or two on a patrol to observe occasionally, can make all the difference when the line knows they're all in the same mess together. . .hat tip to the AVF, with all its wort's, etc., the rank and file have kept the faith as a whole. . .their senior leadership having dug them into a hole.

Toujours Fidele

 

ALFALFA

6:34 AM ET

March 7, 2012

O-10's enforcing curfews?

On a slightly related note, you know you've jumped the shark as a general officer after you've been reduced to writing memoranda berating your troops for staying out past bedtime.

http://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/korea/usfk-commander-calls-out-officers-ncos-after-dozens-violate-curfew-1.170698

 

LFK

2:00 PM ET

March 7, 2012

Heroin?

A statistic like 4.5% hardly means that infantry squads were 4.5% Heroin users. I was there from mid-69 to spring of 70--Pot smoking, you bet but Heroin was available only to REMFs. Unit morale was a direct result of leadership, at the company, platoon and squad levels. Good Lt. and NCOs made all the difference in the world.

I saw many guys who would be slackers in their lives back home who regularly stepped up, and did what they wee supposed to do--every time.

I know men who told me about squads in 1972 who were feeling the sense of not wanting to be the last man to die in what was then a full retreat but I don't know of anyone who didn't do what was asked of them.

And that Claymore thing is nuts. Claymores were never let unaccounted for and since they had to be fired by a soldier at the other end of the wire....

 

REALREALIST

6:08 PM ET

March 7, 2012

you can't handle the truth!

the truth is, the radical left movement in the sixties did more to hurt america's ability to win the war than anything else....jane fonda the traitor and her fashionable friends led the charge of the traitors...

vietnam was not a good war geopolitically, but hindsight is 20/20...once they were in, they had to fight to win. which they didnt do largely because of cronkite and the rise of the media and their leftist hippie morons.

 

MAXIMB

6:11 PM ET

March 22, 2012

That was then, this is now.

That was then, this is now. Needs must when the Devil drives and Obama needs a lot of experience at his side, because he has so little. HC has seen the world through Bill's eyes for years. He cannot keep CR, she's tainted by W..

"Is rio orange war always forfait sosh inevitable ?"
MaximB

 

SELDONCIPRIAN

4:19 PM ET

April 5, 2012

The Firebase Mary Ann

The Firebase Mary Ann incident in my mind was a terrible breakdown of discipline as well as the unit getting away from basic fundamentals. Of course heads rolled to include if I recall correctly the Division Commander, Brigade Commander, and Battalion Commander. Isolated incidents wideboots of bravery kept it from being a total rout. I believe that MG Baldwin's son wrote a spirited and well reasoned defense of his father in Army Magazine right around the time of Desert Storm.

 

Thomas E. Ricks covered the U.S. military for the Washington Post from 2000 through 2008.

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