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Posted By Thomas E. Ricks
Monday, February 13, 2012 - 5:54 AM
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Good for the Navy. Some of my e-friends dislike naming the ship after a former member of Congress who is still alive. But in the case of Gabrielle Giffords' case, I think that is kind of the point -- honoring a woman of courage, resiliency and spirit.
Meanwhile, the Navy jettisoned another skipper of the USS Cowpens. This is becoming an annual event. I wouldn't want to be the next CO of that ship.
Also, oddly, the chief of the boat for one of the crews of the USS Nebraska got the heave-ho. The Navy says it was not because he got all inappropriate with a female midshipmen. But they didn't say why it was.
Also, a Navy wife was convicted of second-degree murder for stabbing to death her lt. cdr. husband, supposedly provoked by learning he was having an affair.
To top it off, a
cashier at the Naval Academy managed to steal more than $120,000. She
probably envied the
football coach's salary.
>But in the case of Gabrielle Giffords' case, I think that is kind of the point -- honoring a woman of courage, resiliency and spirit.
How is a politician getting shot in the head by a nutjob displaying of courage, resiliency and spirit?
I mean, I'm not happy she got shot in the head, and wish she hadn't gotten shot in the head, but it doesn't strike me as a heroic accomplishment. Surely, after a decade of wars we're not short of actual heroes to name our ships after. Even the guys who got shot at Fort Hood died because they were serving their country and are better candidates for the honor.
_B_: Naming the vessel after Ms. Giffords is meant to play well inside the beltway. And it will. People like Tom and all the people he knows probably know Ms. Giffords or know somebody who knows her. So it is a case of "Aw. Isn't that a nice thing to do." She is a victim of a crime who was fortunate enough not to die. What distinguishes her from all the other victims who have been shot by Mr. Stranger Danger is people who have enough pull to name a ship are acquainted with her.
That might seem a small thing but a fighting ship's name should be selected for a better reason than eliciting favorable comments at an inside the beltway cocktail party this week.
At the Cowpens? I thought that the Brits lost that engagement.
Why not change the proposed name of the CVN-78 to USS Barack Obama? I mean, Jerry Ford is just another dead white man, why not employ the naming of the newest supercarrier to note a man of "courage, resiliency, and spirit"?
No politicians.
We shouldn’t name American ships after politicians and yes that means former Commanders in Chief as well.
I prefer we name our ships and facilities after fallen service members, battles, states, cities, or American values (Enterprise, Constitution etc.)
If Secretary Mabus wanted to honor Representative Giffords then he should have had TBI clinic named after her. This not the first naming controversy to occur during his tenure.
Monk
Well said. Tactful
Yes, I tend to agree with the thought that we should not be naming naval vessels after politicians. I much prefer MONK’s suggestion that we use ‘values, historical and tradition names’ or even the British style of names such as (Implacable, Defiance, Indefatigable, etc.). However, I suspect that many of those out there that have and will comment on using politician’s names have no objection if those politicians happen to be off the wall right-wing whack jobs?
John Lehman's response on the matter...
When Secretary of the Navy in the '80s, John Lehman was challenged for naming submarines for states, cities, and Congressmen rather than (traditionally) sea creatures. His response: "Fish don't vote."
Probably an arbitrary mark to set...
...but we ought to wait at least 100 years before naming a vessel after a politician. That should be enough time to get past partisan politics and to allow the historians to debate whether the politician was a good or bad guy (and thus determine if his name is worthy of gracing a US Navy ship).
I think Monk's rule is best, but if we insist on being able to name ships after politicians, then let's have a "cooling off" period.
At the end of the day military members are servants to our political masters. Attempting to place restrictions on this type of thing is a slippery slope. The military exist to execute lawful orders. If that means painting something on the side of ship that they disagree with so be it.
If you want to change the law call your congressman/woman and convince them to change it.
...makes sense, but dead politicians don't vote. The Vinson and the Stennis are the most prominent/egregious examples of pandering to Congress. Likely that future carriers and space battle cruisers and planetary colonization arks will have the oft used names (Enterprise, Wasp, America, etc) while the Southern pols will have had their one moment in nautical history.
Regarding the CVN's and the Presidents, there seemed to be some feet dragging on naming CVN-78 after Gerald Ford, with "W" giving wiggle room to the Navy to skip the name, while Rummy and Cheney pushed for the name. Must be some GOP politics and paybacks, and score-settling behind all of that.
I've always wondered in JC was okay with getting the Seawolf class sub named in his honor. He was an Annapolis grad and submariner, but he seems to have made a definite break from all that with his post-presidency work.
It is a tradition that has long been prerogative of the Secretary of the Navy’s prerogative. Secretary Mabus, is a political appointee.
My issue is not with Mrs. Giffords as I do believe she could be a source of inspiration for service members and civilians dealing with TBI. My objection is to the politics of the naming process. Remove politicians from the list and you go a long way towards removing those politics of the naming process.
There is no connection between naming schemes for U.S. Naval vessels politicians and the execution of lawful orders by the U.S. I suggest you remove the aluminum chapeau from atop your cranium.
Monk
Clausewitz understood. Why don't you?
"My objection is to the politics of the naming process. Remove politicians from the list and you go a long way towards removing those politics of the naming process." Hate to break it to you. but in our system the military serves politics. It's the whole reason for having a military, to give the (political) government - those cats we elect and the other cats they appoint - the means with which to defend the nation. It's called civilian control of the military and it's neither evil nor wrong. Should it intrude into such vital matters as ship-naming? Why the hell not?
Narrative accounts suggest that Congress does on occasion pass authorizations that require a specific name for a ship, just like Congress sometimes passes authorizations and appropriations that require the Navy to build ships it has not requested. In the case of the USS Gerald Ford, "W" signed the law with a statement that gave the Navy wiggle room on what to name the CVN. Maybe he included the statement in order to preserve executive authorities, or maybe he included the statement because he or his daddy did not like Gerald Ford. In any case, Rummy and Cheney then proceeded to push for naming the ship after GF.
Customs and Courtesies or Martial Geopolitical theory
Clausewitz, are you serious Ducky?
The naming of ships is less a matter of war and politics and more one of etiquette and decorum. Which makes Emily Post and Judith Martin (AKA Miss Manners) the SMEs on the issue.
It is ridiculous to suggest that having the Secretary of the Navy refrain from naming our ships after politicians is a slippery slope to a General’s Pustch.
I suppose some folks here think that the Marine Corps is one step away from leaving the reservation ala the 1er Régiment Étranger de Parachutistes circa 1961.
Since 1865, other than “Dugout Doug” in Korea, there have been no issues with civilian control of the Military. Shocking considering the Army has several posts named after Confederate generals, A.P. Hill, Robert E. Lee, John Bell Hood, Braxton Bragg, Henry L. Benning, Edmund Rucker, Leonidas Polk and John Brown Gordon.
Monk
I think naming anything other than children after human beings is generally asinine.
The more closer to permanent the thing, the more arrogant it is to name it after a finite human. Mt. Hood, for instance.
But this can say a great deal about the values of the culture doing the naming. What does naming an instrument of violence after a victim of violence say?
Thankfully, few people remember the song (and dance) they named after me...
I'm For the British System . . .
. . . but also after politicians, generally speaking:
USS Incorrigible
USS Insufferable
USS Pusillanimous
USS Delerium
USS Ignoramus
USS Obsequious
USS Insipid
ad infinitum
Those names might cause some trouble for the crew when they were on shore leave.
let me assure you that the British Sailors always cause confusion, problems, mayhem and good old fashion fun when they pull into port. No PC silliness, the boys are let off the leash and a good old bar brawl is almost expected, have been in them, seen them and love them with the Brits. Totally different world.
Blimey mate, ERIC HAMMEL's got it!
In line with ERIC HAMMEL’s wonderful names I suggest a few that we can associate with various politicians of one’s choice:
USS Mendacious
USS Deceitful
USS Bombastic
USS Demagogic
USS Intolerant
USS Faithless
USS Hypocrite
Or how about for one of the new LCS’s the USS Dissolute
USS Impecunious
C'mon, guys, you can't leave this entirely to the old guys.
You old guys are supposed to be
kind of "salty" and all "crotchety" and spend all your time on this stuff ;)
Kind of sad that we do not name the Ships only after War Heros, War Leaders, or in the case of certain ships-storms, fish, sea mammals, etc....I would be happy with taking the Brits ideas for ship names.
USS Partyline
USS Austerity
USS Sequestration
USS Filibuster
USS Kickback CAPT Cash N. Freezer, Commanding
Sell sponsorships for a new breed of, er, Sponsor Ships (or capital ships, if you will):
USS Goldman Sachs
USS Bank of America
USS Amazon.com
USS 3-Com
USS Viacom
USS DirectTV
USS Google . . .
ESIII: Point taken. However if the crews of the HMS Pansy, HMS Fairy, HMS Sappho and HMS Doris were inclined to have quiet time of it on shore leave, they might be less able to do so than the crews of the HMS Relentless or HMS Indefatigable.
Eric Hammel: Selling corporate sponsorships for ships is a good idea, seriously. It may be the only way the Navy would spend more money on mine warfare ships and the crews would benefit too. The companies could compete on how well they supported "their" crews.
Yes, indeed: rank the corporate sponsors, all mining firms, in the order in which they cause miner deaths through cost-cutting mine safety. Highest death rate = name for the whole class of mine warfare vessels.
I'm sure we could come up with other appropriate matches, as in "capital ships" above. Liquor distillers could sponsor bottleships. What class of sponsors could be tapped for literal warfare ships?
Look at it this way, we named a carrier after John C. Stennis.
Inspirational figure? Did anyone complain?
Does anyone know when/why/how the Navy changed its old naming conventions? In WWII it was something like:
Carriers Revolutionary War ships and (land) battles
Battleships States
Cruisers Cities
Destroyers Highly decorated sailors?? or...?
Subs Sea life
At some point it changed--gradually, I guess. Now, I know that subs are cities, states and some random other stuff; carriers are named after military and political leaders, and I'm not sure what else. Frigates, destroyers?
Would be nice to go back to something like this. Once we went down the path of naming ships after politicians it's been a downstream trip.
Or at least get some money out of it by selling the naming rights to corporations. Add a few bucks to the cost of each video game sold and you could have the Modern Warfare battle group setting sail! And some money set aside for shipbuilding.
Thanks Tom. We love getting the news about the Navy's used tampons. I mean, we usually spend so much time beating up on useless Army sergeants major, Army COIN, FCS, West Point, MacArthur, Vietnam, accountability (or lack thereof), shitty generalship, etc etc. It can get tedious.
The Marines get beat on sometimes, which is cool. I'm a masochist.
And the Air Force? Well, how challenging is it to club baby seals? Not worth the nerve synapses it costs me to type on my keyboard about their comedic yet somehow tragic stupidities.
But I love reading about and seeing the Navy's laundry being aired. Let's start the 2012 Navy Relief Society countdown....now!
USS Cesar Chavez and John Murtha
And then there is:
http://www.defense.gov/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=14504 and
http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=52846
Giffords wasn't a great decision, but the Murtha one is going to raise holy hell. Wow....just wow.
USS Chris Lee and Anthony Weiner
If we are naming ships after Rep. Murtha, recommend at least one ship be named for two recent technology innovators who served in the House.
If two names would be awkward, perhaps we can shorten it to USS Tweet.
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