There are almost 30k troops there at one time or another, low is at 28, 500 by agreement with the ROK, two rapes and the extension of the curfew was due to political considerations, not some wide spread epidemic of crime sprees. Not a profile, it was one guy, I would also read the comments section on that article. So, now one cat or even two who do horrible things are proof of what exactly? That the rest of the 28,500 permanently stationed there or that the others who rotate through there are somehow also suspect?

I couldn't agree more; complete political over-reaction in Korea. 2-3 deranged idiots and now there is a systemic problem with Soldiers in Korea ( 30k people). Let's state the sad truth; rapes occur everyday, everywhere from the richest to poorest area. I'm pretty sure I read a small blurb article about a female Soldier being raped a few weeks later by a local man; strange the local officials didn't institute their own insane policies of mass punishment.

I can tell you the fact that these 2 just had the "misfortune" of getting caught. Had this private raped the girl in an alley between the glass house district and karaoke bars he would have beaten the charges, but since he had the genius to break into this girls house to molest her, he's done for.

Drugs, Prostitution, Rape all goes on with ease in the 'ville. The Juicy club owners (about one ratchet lower than a mafia) will act quick to silence anyone that might speak out because this curfew will diminish their profits (curfews will mean soldiers will be more reluctant to spend the night with a prostitute/juicy girl). It's the same reason why you never see any major protests around Casey anymore, because usually they'll hire thugs to beat the crap out of them afterwards for shutting down the base on a Saturday afternoon that.

In '09 when they eased the curfew from 1AM to 3AM there were similar incidents including a rape but they didn't put the curfew back up to 1AM. One could have easily argued that the curfew wouldn't have changed what had happened with those two rapes, so why put it back? Probably for the slew of incidents that are on Casey's and Yongsan's blotter that you don't see every weekend. If it was political pressure, then that just highlights the Army's pathetic absence at leadership. As you stated yourself there's ~30k soldiers in Korea and it takes just one incident to put the curfew back up. Hell the Curfew was lifted in July and re-instated in October, that's 3 months it lasted before they decided having a bunch of 18-19 year olds running around financially supporting human trafficking was a bad idea.

So now we're back to the real issue, the incompetence/fear of senior leaders to instill accountability to junior leader and those responsible.

I can tell you the fact that these 2 just had the "misfortune" of getting caught. Had this private raped the girl in an alley between the glass house district and karaoke bars he would have beaten the charges, but since he had the genius to break into this girls house to molest her, he's done for.

Drugs, Prostitution, Rape all goes on with ease in the 'ville. The Juicy club owners (about one ratchet lower than a mafia) will act quick to silence anyone that might speak out because this curfew will diminish their profits (curfews will mean soldiers will be more reluctant to spend the night with a prostitute/juicy girl). It's the same reason why you never see any major protests around Casey anymore, because usually they'll hire thugs to beat the crap out of them afterwards for shutting down the base on a Saturday afternoon that.

In '09 when they eased the curfew from 1AM to 3AM there were similar incidents including a rape but they didn't put the curfew back up to 1AM. One could have easily argued that the curfew wouldn't have changed what had happened with those two rapes, so why put it back? Probably for the slew of incidents that are on Casey's and Yongsan's blotter that you don't see every weekend. If it was political pressure, then that just highlights the Army's pathetic absence at leadership. As you stated yourself there's ~30k soldiers in Korea and it takes just one incident to put the curfew back up. Hell the Curfew was lifted in July and re-instated in October, that's 3 months it lasted before they decided having a bunch of 18-19 year olds running around financially supporting human trafficking was a bad idea.

So now we're back to the real issue, the incompetence/fear of senior leaders to instill accountability to junior leader and those responsible.

Bollacks, so, you say it then it must be true. Ya know, it's like all these other crimes I always hear that our guys commit that are right in front of my face that I yet never see or that when they do come to my attention they are rarely what they are supposed to be.
You want to say drinks to much, gets in fights, gets DUIs, etc...hey, see it all the time, the rest of the stuff you mention is bollacks. We would see it all the time in other places too and yet we do not.
As to posting that, why would you do that if you were somehow not attempting to frame the argument that the military is usually up to committing some kind of crime? Veteran Incarceration rate is about half of what the general population is, the violent crime rate is a lot lower too, or is that just stuff we do not get to see as well? Come on, your digging your heals in on the post that had no real point except to try to show that the military is obviously just crime ridden when it is not. If that was not your point then why post that at all?

before you get all ticked off and try to point out that incidents happen, I have no doubt they do but it does not mean that it is common place, that the guys over there who commit these crimes are the rule and not the exception or that the roughly 30k guys there are all brigands or rapists because of a few guys. Do people understand the numbers in this? Millions serve and we have thousands of crimes in the military but the overall rate is still lower but we have people who never put the bigger picture into the story or the numbers. I do not understand this line of reasoning that somehow vets are more crime prone or why folks march it out all the time when it is not the case in reality.

I'd like to see where your getting yours. I'll say again, if you're resorting to a numbers game, then we might as well look at our forces as a bunch of brigands. Here I was always under the assumption that I was being held to a higher standard after I swore my oath, but I guess I was wrong.

Your logic is also flawed because we can't track UCMJ punishment for crimes that could be prosecuted if. If Civilian Steve steals some things from Civilian Bill in an apartment complex, bill would call the cops. If Pvt James steals from Pvt Harrison in the barracks, 1SG gets involved and gives Pvt James 45/45.

On the Veterans front you're also discounting the fact that veterans are more likely to receive probation than incarceration for crimes. In 2007 1.2 million veterans we're in jail, 223,000 (or 9.4%) were in jail, and another 480000 we're put on probation.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:3zJ46Hlwvk8J:www.erie.va.gov/bh/vjoconference2011/assets/OEF-OIF_Reentry2.ppt+1.2+million+veterans+in+prison&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShGNlACWfuTQ4wkTbCkAi1CaXW9RqdPSCsvbUaUyKFQQFnJ06HnA30LNqxUd_SECWMdIyXqpeaEuAzrvdMd26Qmf8uJl2TB5k06fv4EcVy4xeUNUkl3MjlQCPgdtm__DNeqh_Jy&sig=AHIEtbRy9MW8RYYFjyJNlyA_U2oI7xmDNA&pli=1

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/18/us/18vets.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

So unless you feel like citing your sources showing all soldiers are saints, I'll keep citing reasons why our military population is quickly falling from grace.

A few cases here and there do not prove your point and as I said in my posts prior, I am sure you can find incidents, nor did I say we are saints. I also did not frame any of my posts in a manner attempting to show we are all brigands, you seem to want to imply that a lot and this is not the first time you have posted about it. You posted one up that had little to do with the topic or the conversation in that thread and just stated that a couple of guys got arrested for rape in Korea, 2 out of 30K guys in that country at any time? What was your point on that post again? You then defended it by saying that prostitution, rape and drug use were rampant from what you say. I am sure prostitution is rampant in a lot of military areas, it has been that way since time immortal. How is that in the same vein as rape? Drug use? Well, if that is going on then the testing is failing. Then the next was on child neglect, great, what was the point of that one? I imagine to show how terrible the troops are. Please, read "Stolen Valor", loads of points and stats in that one. Lastly, you attempt to say that we can't track crime stats in the military? I assume that you do know that all stats are given to the Feds. I know you know that the the CID and the NCIS are Federal Agencies and that the FBI also can conduct investigations on military reservations and they compile stats, so how can we not track the stats? Are you going to try imply that rape or other high violent crimes are given NJP?

Many times in the past you have posted about the low caliber of recruits coming into the military, specifically the "moral waivers", but they have to grant waivers even for traffic offenses, minor and serious. So, why the worry that we are being infested with them? I know the Army most of all suffered from the recruiting problems but the things I have seen that have lead the Army to have so many problems have usually stemmed from poor training and leadership. They do not do psych checks, so some folks you are not going to prevent from coming in no matter what. I am all for higher standards in recruiting, I just do not think that has been our main problem with regards to what is hurting the institutions.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/waiverdetails.htm

Here is one stat-

"A study released Sunday by the Bureau of Justice Statistics compared the populations of inmates who served in the military and those who did not. Veterans are half as likely to be incarcerated as the overall male population in the first place, researchers found, but 23 percent of the veterans in prison were sex offenders, compared with 9 percent of nonveteran inmates.
“We couldn’t come to any definite conclusion as to why,” said Margaret E. Noonan, one of the study’s authors. The numbers mirror a trend seen in military prisons, where populations have declined but sexual assault remains the most common crime.
“I don’t want people to come away from this thinking veterans are crazed sex offenders,” Noonan said. “I want them to understand that veterans are less likely to be in prison in the first place.”-This was in 2007, I am sure the numbers have changed little but I may be wrong.

Here is one directly dealing with Korea-
http://rokdrop.com/2008/02/27/gi-myths-is-the-us-military-crime-rate-in-korea-out-of-control/

Here is one on Japan and the SOFA for Okinawa-
http://www.japanprobe.com/2008/08/18/stars-and-stripes-us-military-related-crime-reports-relatively-low-on-okinawa/

For the final tally, go to the FBI Uniform Crime Report, the one thing you will find consistent though is what seems to be a rise in sex related crimes in the military, not sure if this is due to reporting increases or that the military considers even verbal comments to be sexual assault and lists them that way, false claims are also listed from what I understand, basically once it is called in or a report is taken it is in the stats, but either way, it was consistently on the rise in almost every stat in the FBI and the BJS who focus on prison populations and why they are there. Anyway dude, this is not the first time this topic has come up, if you go back and see my comments on this similar topic you will see that I have not changed my tone much although I might on the sexual assault one if unless I locate what is behind the consistent steep rise in this. I am curious as to why you seem so hell bent on portraying the service in this light? Even at the worst bases I have never seen it get all that bad and not an iota close to what my towns up in MA are like, we had a large base down the road from us at Ft. Devens but even then my Grandfather who was a police Captain in Lowell would always be good with the military guys, they were not as much of a problem, anecdotal but been that way since. What has happened to you that seems to have colored your perception so much? Are you a strict moralist who thinks anything like prostitution, alcohol abuse, etc...is evidence of a morally bankrupt and criminal military? If it is then at least I know how far apart we are on perspectives and I can at least kind of see why it is that you post the way you do all the time when this topic seems to come up.

I don't think think the article meant to suggest that JBLM is necessarily unique. A newspaper journalist is best served by focusing in-depth on a single example rather than trying to present a survey of a broader issue.

It is my understanding that many problems-domestic violence, suicide, drunk driving, etc.-are skyrocketing in the military in the GWOT era. The correlation may or may not exist, and the latter may not necessarily cause the former, but it astounds me that the assertion would be treated with much skepticism.

PTSD does not require a "normal" combat event like getting shot at or blown up. It is a physiological response to a change in environment and perceived danger. More important is how the afflicted individual viewed the situation they were in and the situation in which they now find themselves. There are Korean war vets with PTSD who were never fired upon but patrolled the DMZ with an unloaded rifle and knew they could not protect themselves if such an engagement were to occur.

The only thing a lot of those guys are patrolling on a big FOB is the Pizza Hut or TGIFs, it is true that their weapons are unloaded but not a lot of stress except that caused by over eating.

On the other point, the violence is not really skyrocketing, that is the problem, the press reports it like it is shooting out of control but it is still less than the general population as a whole with regard to overall violent crime, mind you those stats are not from 2011', so maybe that has changed but I doubt it. Also, the media will toss anyone who served a day in uniform as being a "vet" even if they were thrown out with a Less Than Honorable, DisHonorable or Admin Sep. It does a dis-service to all of those who did serve in an honorable manner, which really is not that hard to do. It makes the news because it makes good story telling and engages a premise that the media as a whole embrace, that military service is either damaging to someone and that those who serve are either victims somehow of a system or perpetrators against some victim due to their military service.

29 military dependent children dead in 2010, 36 died in 2008.

That's well above the civilian number.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/09/military-child-abuse-deaths-090211w/

and that disproves my point exactly how? I am sure if you dig enough we are above the civilians in other areas too but what does that have to do with my point exactly? Or the point that we have a lower overall violent rate per capita, incarceration rate per capita? etc....I will even go out on a limb and bet that we have a higher percentage of DUI Homicides than the civilian population and I will base that not on stats or facts but on anecdotal evidence, will that help you feel vindicated somehow?

Sometimes looking back in the window from outside on the street, presents a different view than those from within see around them.

If you have access to, and talk with, local authorities, not just in Tacoma, but Orting, Seattle, etc., they will tell you candidly, having corresponded with other law enforcement authorities outside and near large bases around the U.S., Lewis - McChord presently stands out as a problem child among them all for law enforcement. . .I can only imagine what the provost marshall deals with aboard the Army side of the house at old Ft. Lewis?

I had talked to local law enforcement, but I didn't ask that question. I honestly didn't care at the time about what other units' problems were. I hear you, but I'm not sure how law enforcement figures out that JBLM is the worst. If there are metrics, I'm confident the author of the article would of researched that (now THAT would of made a headline), or for that matter any of the other journalists in the Seattle area who have written similar stories. My point is that these issues are not installation unique, are leadership oriented, and that a journalist trying to plant the idea that JBLM is somehow doing something different or negligent is wrong.

If you're wanting to play a numbers game, then we might as well throw out the profession of Arms and any attempt to make the force look professional. A military is held to a higher standard. the culture can't play this "less than one percent" bullcrap and then when high profile events come along go "well it was just one guy".

and the military is trending upwards anyways just as it did after Vietnam.

http://www3.gazette.com/documents/epiconreport.pdf

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/11/16/most-dangerous-military-towns/

Also it's no compliment knowing just how hard the Army has to keep it's thumb on it's personnel just to achieve these results. The guys at blockbuster doesn't have an additional layer of punishment (UCMJ) to keep them in check, or people working at Target don't have their shift leaders following them back to their apartments to make sure they're not living in squalor or harassing females.

It is a numbers game and the same folks who listed those towns as some of the most dangerous also listed them as the most safe and safer overall, did you read the whole article?

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/11/16/most-dangerous-military-towns/

But please, please, stop capitalizing soldier. That's just dumb.

I deserve that Hunter. I seldom write outside of military correspondance, so point taken.

It's not your fault, it's the Army. The Marine's cornered the market on that monopoly of stupid long ago. Why the Army wants to follow along I simply do not know. (I refuse to do it in official correspondence as well, what are they gonna do Fire Me?)

I think #1 is your key point- current junior enlisted generation has no coping skills. My wife, one of the much-maligned JAGs and currently Chief of Mil. Justice for a Division, agrees with you based on her daily trail of misery.

In two years of command I had one soldier (lower case- terrorist fist bump to Hunter) suicide and two attempts. The successful one had deployed once, non-combat TOC job and was on RD sitting out the next one. The two attempts were first-term soldiers, no deployments, but with massive personal/family problems.

if USMC Boot Camp reaches the recruit's interior reality. The same goes for Ranger School and similar demanding environments. Army entry training barely reaches their external reality these days.

I also wonder about base location as an influence on behavior. To some, the frequent light rains in the PNW could be depressing. It is reminiscent of Scandinavia in that regard.

When I was assigned to Fort Huachuca, I found myself buoyed by the climate and the scenery. I am seeking other variables in the equation. It would be interesting to compare posts and the impact of location on their statistics. Some posts are in really miserable places thanks to Congressional Pork Barrel politics. However, what is the data like for our bases in Hawaii and Okinawa?