Tuesday, November 15, 2011 - 7:48 AM
Last week I participated in a discussion of Eliot Cohen's new book about America's warpath between Albany, New York, and Montreal, Canada. One of the subjects was the similarity between that era and today's, with sustained limited wars provoked by acts of terror. Cohen made a couple of comments that struck me:
-- When Champlain traveled with Indians south from Canada into hostile territory, "it's not Champlain who is the actor, it's the Indians who are the actors. The Indians are manipulating him." Likewise, these days, it's not always about us. In the post-9/11 world, "we are a powerful piece often being moved around their chessboard."
--The French did much better than the British/Americans in dealing with the Indians -- but eventually the British/Americans got "good enough" at it to use their other advantages to prevail
--"One of the great strategic virtues is empathy."
I asked an old friend to interview Professor Cohen about his new book:
Magua: Were you inspired to write this book by the movie version of 'Last of the Mohicans'? If not, why not?
Eliot Cohen: No, no, no. The movie is not all that great, and James Fenimore Cooper's book is pretty problematic too -- wooden dialogue, implausible characters, unbelievable action. But he got the landscape right. On the other hand, it's still in print, which is more than you can say of most other books coming on two centuries since pub date. But there is a kernel of truth here. Kenneth Roberts was a wonderful historical novelist whom I read when I was a teenager, and between that and a visit to Fort Ticonderoga at age ten I got hooked. Took me some four decades to go from fascination to published book, however.
Magua: Hmm. [Speaking Huron] Magua is glad this guy writes books better than he reviews movies. [Returning to the white man's tongue] Tell us a bit about this French-Canadian character who keeps popping up, would you?
EC: That would be La Corne St. Luc. He led raiding parties against the Americans in three wars (King George's War, the French and Indian War, and the Revolution) although he also offered to join them when it looked as though we were about to take Canada in 1775. He was a brilliant leader of Indians and may have had a role in the massacre at Fort William Henry in 1757. In 1761 he figured New France was finished and set sail for France. He was shipwrecked off what is now Cape Breton Island, saw his two sons slip out of his grasp and drown just before he got on shore, pulled together the half dozen survivors, built a fire, found some Indians to take care of them, and then hiked fifteen hundred miles or so to Quebec -- in the dead of winter -- to get more help. Smart enough to slip away from Major General John Burgoyne's army invading New York from Canada in 1777, just before it was surrounded and forced to surrender to the last man. Died in 1784, aged 73 (a very ripe old age by contemporary standards) one of the richest men in Canada, with a pretty young wife. Quite a guy.
Magua: The French were in so much better a position militarily. How did they blow their hold on North America?
EC: Numbers had a lot to do with it -- there were only 80,000 French Canadians and about fifteen times as many English-controlled colonists in the 1750s. But the more important explanation is the Royal Navy, which pretty much throttled the colony during the Seven Years (French and Indian) War, and the willingness of the British to pour vast resources into the conquest of North America. By 1759, when Quebec fell, there were easily four or five times as many British as French soldiers in North America, and Quebec was cut off and starving. But the French put up a ferocious fight, and might have hung on another year or so. And, in the supreme irony, at the decisive battle outside Quebec in 1759 their combination of French troops, Canadian militia, and Indians actually outnumbered the British army (almost all regulars) under James Wolfe.
Magua: Is there a lesson for our times here?
EC: I am wary of the idea of lessons. What the book shows, though, is just how deeply our way of war is rooted in our past. What is now the United States has been involved in every major global conflict since the end of the seventeenth century, and the Great Warpath was, in many ways the decisive theater for the North American bits of those conflicts. A lot of the ways we think about and approach warfare emanate from the two centuries I discuss in the book, including the paradoxical notion that one can conquer a nation into liberty. On that particular point, see the chapter about the siege of St. Johns in 1775.
Magua: What's the one question you wish someone would ask about this book?
EC: What was the most fun about researching and writing it? Two answers: (a) leaving behind the pundits (particularly the monomaniacs and wingnuts) of contemporary political discourse and spending time -- in my head, that is -- with some great historians and truly remarkable historical characters, including La Corne St. Luc, Benedict Arnold, Ethan Allen, and many more; (b) walking the ground, to include snowshoeing the Battle on Snowshoes and sailing the battle of Valcour Island. If the book inspires lots of people to go poking around the places I write about, I will be delighted.
Tom thanks for presenting Eliot Cohen’s new book today. Anyone familiar with his “Supreme Command – Soldiers, Statesmen, and Leadership in Wartime’, know he is a superb writer with wonderful insight. I have my copy of ‘Conquered Into Liberty’ as yet unread while I finish a few volumes on the First World War.
Hopefully, Mr. Cohen might receive an invitation to Fort Ti for the Fort Ticonderoga Association annual May symposium on the French & Indian War which I would never miss and fly across country to attend. The author’s review of his new book and an extended question and answer period from a knowledgeable audience would be the highlight of the weekend.
For those having read Cohen’s new book I would suggest further reading of Fred Anderson’s ‘Crucible of War – The Seven Years War and the Fate of Empire in British North America 1754 – 1766’. Fred’s book must be considered the premier narrative of this most interesting period in our nations early history.
Secondly, I strongly recommend one of the best written books I have ever read and that is David Hackett Fischer’s, ‘Champlain’s Dream’, a riveting and incredibly detailed researched history of not only Champlain’s voyages and explorations but the precise area under study in Cohen’s new book.
The message of the French & Indian war is that of strategic sea power as practiced by the incomparable Royal Navy. As superb soldiers the native ‘Canadiens’ and the French regulars were along with their Indian allies it was all for naught unless they could control the sea approaches to Canada. In this respect they never had a chance. Also, what is interesting is the different relationship the Canadiens had developed with the native Indians in comparison to the British settlers. The French adapted their culture to a new native culture the British forced that culture to adapt to them.
This is the site of the Fort Ti Association for those interested: http://www.fortticonderoga.org/newsroom/detail/id/66
Once again JPWREL, you have over achieved in your knowledge of such matters.
Let me also add my compliments to Tom Ricks for presenting Cohen’s book and add that Chapt de La Corne is a most fascinating individual and was far more than a low level player during the period discussed here. . .and a bit afterward.
When down in the big city, I troll through used book stores, and years ago stumbled on an out of print book of La Corne called “General of the Indians.“ However, you may acquire it in PDF, as well as a more recently written PDF download on him that is available called La Corne: White Warrior - White Wisdom which I think you might enjoy (20 clams or so).
Although I don't speak Huron, I do speak Lakota and to you JPWREL and all I say:
zuyawiaba lila ohibauaoi ib bauu un iubeoi hena waiaue uca pua bohan winyan anbe uin maia glauinyan iupayaoi uin hehan ihanue kta naiun hehan oyanue uin iupayaoi kta!
Unlike, TYRTAIOS I have no native blood in me but my wife is part Mohawk which, I am always conscious of before I enter into argument with her. Mohawk in Iroquois as I understand it actually means ‘man eater’ that for those of you familiar with this Iroquoian tribe know was also part of their unique ‘culture’. Apparently, Mohawk cannibalism was religious in context and not for nourishment. I suppose it was an expression of contempt for their enemies? Anyway, one does not cross the Mohawk in my home even one of diluted blood.
At least your wife doesn't refer to you as an "Algonquian", known to all good Mohawk and other Iroquois as a "bark eater", lowest of the low.
You (and Cohen) writes that the Royal Navy was a critical factor in those wars, but I always wondered what was the impact of morale in the battles (notably Quebec 1759). A lot of the french colonists moved to Canada to escape the tyranny of the french regime, and paid little more than lip service to the crown, or so I've learned. The English (and Americans, eventually) were fighting for their home in America after all, while the French were fighting for an oversea aristocracy. It would explain the triumphant entrance of the English troops in Montreal in 1760, despite religious differences.
Do you think morale played a role in those wars, especially among the irregulars?
Cohen got it right both on the movie and the book the ‘Last of the Mohicans’. As far as the movie is concerned I knew at the time the historical advisor to that film and he explains it was a constant battle with Michael Mann to stick to some semblance of the book and history. A simple thing like the fact that their was no Highland regiment at Fort William Henry at the time didn’t bother Mann a bit. He says ‘we are going to have Highlander’s’ and that’s that! My friend told me that Mann was so often distracted with cocaine that that he is surprised Mann didn’t have the 7th Cavalry ride to the rescue. The worst experience of his life and didn’t even get paid that well.
Heat and Collateral have some of the best, most realistic gunplay on film. Miami Vice was plenty of fun back in the day too. (Heat is one of my all time favorite movies).
One would like them to at least try to get the details right*. It is entirely possible in my opinion to make a good movie that doesn't blatantly ignore what actually happened, or at least something resembling it such as The Battle for Algiers.
* See also such 'gems' as Braveheart and The Patriot when it comes to ignoring historical reality and 300 for when the director isn't even pretending to be accurate.
I agree on Braveheart and the Patriot as the pitch is historical reality. But 300 is based on a comic book and was never intended to have a semblance of historical reality. It would be like slamming Dr. Strangelove for not accurately portraying the Cold War...it misses the point.
Dr. Strangelove was always intended to be a parody. 300 was basically one man's politics and opinions put in the most blatant way possible while ignoring the reality of what actually happened there. It would be like writing a Peloponnesian Wars film with Milos about to poison the Athenians and so the Athenians were forced to kill and enslave everyone on the island. To someone like myself who values accurate, unbiased historical records so I can try to see if modern political theories can explain events this is actually worse. Then there's the overt racial themes. I have to wonder if the director has ever actually seen an Iranian before in his life.
To quote Mr. Miller (though he wasn't commenting on his comic book) in an NPR interview in 2007:
"For some reason, nobody seems to be talking about who we're up against, and the sixth century barbarism that they actually represent. These people saw people's heads off. They enslave women, they genitally mutilate their daughters, they do not behave by any cultural norms that are sensible to us. I'm speaking into a microphone that never could have been a product of their culture, and I'm living in a city where three thousand of my neighbors were killed by thieves of airplanes they never could have built."
Interestingly, apparently he was completely unaware that genital mutilation actually isn't that common among Muslims, is not (to the best of my fair knowledge) practiced in the Middle East or South Asia, and seems to be practiced by a few Muslim, Christian and other tribes in East Africa, to date none of which the U.S has decided to attack. Also he didn't know that for centuries the Muslims were well ahead of Europe in culture and knowledge.
Did this guy ever come clean on his Iraq saber-rattling or his over-the-top accusations against John Mearsheimer and Steve Walt (a frequent FP contributor)?
I am not clear why 0ohen is taken seriously in spite of his ivy-league credentials. Just another nocon as far as I can tell - can't really trust anything he says or writes, even if it took place 250 years ago!
So it isn't clear why this dude is being allowed to flog his book here. He and his colleagues got us into a series of messes we haven't yet extracted ourselves from.
Just a note a note: About 99% of people who want to visit the site of the Battle of the Snowshoes visit the wrong location. Real real location is on the far west side of the Fort Ti golf course. If any of you ever want to go there let me know and I will mark it for you on a map. That is also true for the location of the tragic death of Lord Howe (who was the real tactical leader of Abercromby's expedition) leading the British Light Infantry front he landing site. The real location is further up Trout Brook not where the historical sign is.
and I get over to that area occasionally. Would you (JPWREL) send me some detail here or my direct email (via T Ricks)? Thanks.
Sure GSF, let me see what I can do.
Conquered into Liberty? The Great Warpath?
The book has to be a good deal better than its front cover, and I gather that it is. I can think of no recent case of authentic conquering people into liberty more powerful than the invasion of Cambodia by the communist government in Vietnam. That unhorsed the domestically murderous Pol Pot regime, much to the outrage of official Washington at the time. There, Pol Pot was thought of as the good guy. (The UN also thought the Vietnamese invasion an outrage: so much for the might of the UN in such matters. It did nothing.) The Vietnamese military , having done what was wanted in Cambodia, went home ten months after its D-day. A lesson to us all.
That ignores several facts, including that the U.S government was never under the illusion that the Khmer Rouge were 'good'. They simply were more on the Chinese side of the Communist split while the Vietnamese were on the Soviet side. The Vietnamese were largely motivated by the Cambodian attacks, which in turn were motivated by fears of Vietnamese domination*. Additionally Vietnam was actually in Cambodia from 1979 to 1989. That was hardly going 'home ten months after'. Lastly the Vietnam government was never interested in giving the Cambodian people liberty. It did help stop a genocide but it wasn't a humanitarian intervention.
*Which is up to debate whether they were right or not.
I see I'm accused of things I didn't say
... and GRANT seems to think that the US was right to stand up for the unquestionable evil of the Pol Pot regime and for reasons that had nothing to do with what that regime was doing to its people. Pol Pot made Messrs al-Assad and Gaddafi look like boy scouts.
I didn't in any way argue that the Vietnamese attacked on humanitarian grounds, and I did point out that the attack had the effect -- a good effect -- of putting Pol Pot out of business; over American protests and complaints. A textbook example of a people being liberated by the conquering of the national administration that had murdered millions of them.
It's certainly true that both nations had been involved in border flurries for years. Advocates of each side believed they were right and the other guys were wrong. GRANT cannot deny my accurate account of how long it took for the Vietnamese army to launch its conquering of the murderers and getting out after doing it. He or she prefers to ignore that.
The other odd thing on the front cover of Mr Cohen's new book: this "Great Warpath". Quite like sociopath and psychopath, two little-admired folies de grandeur.
I have expressed the hope above that the book is more sensible than its cover. But perhaps it isn't. Trying to conquer into liberty is not an American uniqueness. The Vietnamese did it in Cambodia. It's exactly what the British government tried to do after Mr Hitler invaded Poland in 1939, and what Britain did in 1914 -- three years ahead of the US -- after imperial Germany overran the European lowlands.
Motives are one thing, achievements another. The Allied efforts from 1939to 1945 did not restore liberty to the Poles. Trying (allegedly) to achieve liberty through conquering the Hussein government in 2003 led about one-fifth of the Iraqi nation to flee their homeland; it seems that at most that about two million went back, to experience liberty to switch to the Shi'a brand of Islam and find they don't have their home there any more. There seems much-dimished liberty to be a Christian. Millions of Afghans who fled THEIR homeland starting in 2001 are now petitioning sundry other governments not to be repatriated by force to Afghanistan on the ground that this could mean certain and violent death Back Home -- this in many cases for reasons arising from the 2001 invasion.
I see I'm accused of things I didn't say
... and GRANT seems to think that the US was right to stand up for the unquestionable evil of the Pol Pot regime and for reasons that had nothing to do with what that regime was doing to its people. Pol Pot made Messrs al-Assad and Gaddafi look like boy scouts.
I didn't in any way argue that the Vietnamese attacked on humanitarian grounds, and I did point out that the attack had the effect -- a good effect -- of putting Pol Pot out of business; over American protests and complaints. A textbook example of a people being liberated by the conquering of the national administration that had murdered millions of them.
It's certainly true that both nations had been involved in border flurries for years. Advocates of each side believed they were right and the other guys were wrong. GRANT cannot deny my accurate account of how long it took for the Vietnamese army to launch its conquering of the murderers and getting out after doing it. He or she prefers to ignore that.
The other odd thing on the front cover of Mr Cohen's new book: this "Great Warpath". Quite like sociopath and psychopath, two little-admired folies de grandeur.
I have expressed the hope above that the book is more sensible than its cover. But perhaps it isn't. Trying to conquer into liberty is not an American uniqueness. The Vietnamese did it in Cambodia. It's exactly what the British government tried to do after Mr Hitler invaded Poland in 1939, and what Britain did in 1914 -- three years ahead of the US -- after imperial Germany overran the European lowlands.
Motives are one thing, achievements another. The Allied efforts from 1939to 1945 did not restore liberty to the Poles. Trying (allegedly) to achieve liberty through conquering the Hussein government in 2003 led about one-fifth of the Iraqi nation to flee their homeland; it seems that at most that about two million went back, to experience liberty to switch to the Shi'a brand of Islam and find they don't have their home there any more. There seems much-dimished liberty to be a Christian. Millions of Afghans who fled THEIR homeland starting in 2001 are now petitioning sundry other governments not to be repatriated by force to Afghanistan on the ground that this could mean certain and violent death Back Home -- this in many cases for reasons arising from the 2001 invasion.
For those having read Cohen’s new book I would suggest further reading of Fred Anderson’s ‘Crucible of War – The Seven Years War and the Fate of Empire in British North America 1754 – 1766’. Fred’s book must be considered the premier narrative of this most interesting period in our nations early history. This will build links for you into the real American History that you will never forget.
I can think of no recent case of authentic conquering people into liberty more powerful than the invasion of Cambodia by the communist government in Vietnam. That unhorsed the domestically murderous Pol Pot Greg Tims regime, much to the outrage of official Washington at the time. There, Pol Pot was thought of as the good guy.
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