The few folks in my unit who we thought were gay haven't come out. Nobody I know has come out nor has it been in an issue as of yet. People joke all the time about it privately. It won't be an issue until people are offended gay or straight. It becomes an issue if we get a repeat of the FT. Campbell murder or some other high profile incident. Right now everybody is worried about ensuring that the PC police don't threaten their jobs. Nobody wants to get kicked out for a remark. Plus the economy is horrible so I'm sure tolerance levels are riding pretty high right now. Its still to early to see if any predictions positive or negative will come true.

Probably the most important point of the day. If there is a "worst part" to our media culture this is probably it. For some reason no one is ever called upon to explain their opinions when subsequent events prove them wrong.

Not that there are not other problems but this is up there.

I was just talking to my brother about this and I tried to look up Army recruiting numbers. If the past is any indication, the Army usually releases the number this week after the fiscal year. I think that will be the first big test. Of course, all the rampant scaremongering of soldiers fighting and beating the crap out of gay soldiers hasn't materialized at all. Further, I don't think there has been a rise in soldiers fleeing the service.

Of course, the same generals predicting DADT disaster also failed to prepare the Army for COIN, approved the FCS and planned the Iraq war.

The troops aren't going to go out of their way to commit crimes and risk careers. Our chaplain isn't in the least happy, but at this point what can you do. There is a big difference about being happy and embracing the rules as your own to doing your job and not worring about it. Most people are worring about their next deployment or if the DOD is going to start cutting troops. They misrepresented the numbers on the DADT surveys to get the answers they wanted and then cramed the ruling down our throats. At this point its over. I don't care anymore except as a conversation piece.

Does the good Major assume that everything beneficial or detrimental manifests itself within a reasonable period of time? What is reasonable? A week? A month? A year? How long has it been now? I have facial hair older than this policy, and I shave everyday. Are people, such as this Major, really so simplistic that they can't understand that these things play out over years and decades and generations? Does the major not understand that with the economy the way it is, the likelihood is that people will NOT leave the military regardless of how they feel about the change in policy. Does the Major see the lack of an exodus as proof positive that all is good with the world now that the Major's policy preference has been implemented? Is the Major SO invested emotionally in the policy change that he would like to see it's critics publicly flogged? Does the Major feel the same about a certain Vice President's cockeyed predictions? Is TR so starved for material that he feels compelled to put this sort of nonsense in his blog? So many questions.

Seriously, this short timeline(itis) seems to be a commonality with those of you who are, ahem, left of center. It was the same with the Iraq Surge. A month after the arrival of additional troops which BEGAN the Surge, you people, in all seriousness no less, pronounced it an unmitigated disaster and all is lost and woe is me and...
Maybe those prognosticators should be publicly flogged too.

It's quite funny to watch you people.

I know this guy sat through the same exact level 2 training I did, for senior leaders. I know somebody in his chain of command read the DOD script verbatim. We didn't discus anything, nor were any questions asked. It was clear we needed to shut up and color. I don't think any of the worst predictions about this crap will come to pass. Tom might do better if he continued his worthwhile crusade on highlighting some of the toxic leadership we're experiencing in the Army, then wasting time on this. Its to soon.

TR was as quick to take a victory lap over Repeal of DADT as over Libya. Wonder where those 20K Manportable Surface to Air Missiles walked off to? Paper still some reports of fighting in Libya?

I expect the repeal of DADT will work out OK. It is still (at best), One More Thing That the Chain of Command Will Have to Wrestle With! It is probably only a great leap forward on social front not a great leap forward on military front.

Some things are Going To Go Wrong! Those Old Guys above that you want to eat crow are going to have some anecdotes where something went wrong and they are going to feed it back to the MAJ and TR (just ignore them and continue your victory lap).

When I was stationed at Ft Irwin NTC, they had some homosexual ring in the AR BN (those tankers do the darndest things!!) a Buck SGT was married to a real girl at Ft Polk but had a lover in another tank. During Comp Days (between rotations) about 3 homosexual lovers drove all the way to Leesville LA to shoot the Buck SGTs wife (his rival). They rang the bell, shot her in the chest 2-3 times, and jumped in the car to drive back to NTC to OPFOR the next rotation. She lived, they all went to jail, I thought it was quite a human interest story. So MAJ and TR as part of your "war game" next time something like that happens you are going to hear from Merrill McPeak and all those old guys.

That reminds me of an old Air Force joke: Q: "You're in a room with the Ayatollah Khomeini, Muammar Gaddafi, and Merrill McPeak you have a pistol and only two rounds on ammo, who do you shoot? A: "Merrill McPeak TWICE!"

...are only marginally better than uninformed opinions, and the difference is within the margin of error. For years, the powerful and the fearful have used experts to screw over regular folks, the ignorant, and the powerless. Check out current events for the past 10 to see what experts have achieved.

Regular people have proven that gays in the military is not a big deal. I'd add that gay shenanigans will take their place next to all of the straight shenanigans and misconduct. The two dudes getting it on in a CHU are about the same as the lady and the dude getting it on in the SWA hut.

1. Yes, it's too early to tell. I think the doomsday prophecies are far fetched, but it is in fact too early to tell whether this policy will be successful. I hope that it is, and I hope that those who doubt the merits of the policy nonetheless hope that it is successful, as well. It would be a shame to wish hardship on the military institution for the sole purpose of proving yourself right.

2. I sat through Level 3 training and delivered Level 1 and 2 training. There were honest, candid, and insightful discussions, particularly among the enlisted troops. From this limited window of experience, I was floored at the sophistication of the understanding of the issues in the E-3 to E-6 ranks and the critical thinking and analysis on display as we discussed the issues and the vignettes. There was no "shut up and color" mentality in my training sessions.

3. The NTC-SGT's wife shooting story: so why exactly is it relevant that the soldiers who shot the wife were gay? Intermural relationship violence occurs in both gay and straight relationships. Should we draw some conclusion about the nature of gay relationships from a single anecdote?

It is a bit early to tell, however the panic, the outrage... it is not there. We can look at Austrailia and the UK to see it does not effect the quality of servicemember we produce, and it moves the force more inline with the rest of the American population.

Young soldiers largely do not care - even the ones who objected - did so mostly because the status quo is easier than change; they see the loud, flambouant demonstrator in their face, and disrupting their lives, rather than the fellow soldier who just wants to live his own life. We (kinda) knew before who was gay - not that there is anything wrong with that. To our generation it is common.

There will be hiccups, there will be individual incidents - but by and large they will be isolated, and they will be addressed by commanders in a fair and transparent manner. The chaplain who sees homosexuality as a sin has the same issue with the single female soldier who gets pregnant, or a host of other sins that young servicemembers find themselves. The "Alabama good-ol boy" will grudgenly bite his tounge to retirement or the end of his term - and if he chooses that he can live with someone different our team, then as a young officer, I do not need him on my team. He is replacable. But the incidents will be individual, and commanders and first sergeants will deal with them.

Also: I'd love to see numbers of soldiers who've actually came out and what rank, then check again in 3 years to see if they've progressed up the chain. Since Sexual Orientation isn't covered in EO (which is an admission saying Sexual Orientation is indeed a choice according to the Military) if you're being picked on you have to go to your superior......who probably doesn't want you in. Then there's IG, who i'm SURE will dedicate their full time and energy to vigorously investigate these claims. Furthermore, as it's not in EO who are you going to complain to if you keep getting passed up for O-4 or E-6 because you're gay? They can't keep you out cause your gay, but your gay LIFESTYLE can irk them and make them think you're not fit.

As for now: Heteros won't care much until they start hearing how Gay couples are getting Housing. So I'm sure the branches will suppress the hell out of all the "case by cases" where they award housing to a non married gay couple before DOMA is repealed. By right every Soldier with a Committed Girlfriend should get the same right if they start giving gay couples on post housing or BAH. Same goes for DD93/SGLI options, and everything else they give to gays without DOMA repeal.

My 2 questions are:

Why can't Transsexuals or Transgender individuals join the Military yet?

Are gay prospects being told about how under DOMA they'll be considered a Single Soldier regardless of their marital status?

The comments section of this blog is almost always informative and well spoken. This thread, however, has really brought out some gems. Who cares who people have sex with. The NTC shooting story? Really? That was relevant....how?

This is a generational thing, and my generation, the one that is currently the center mass of the American military, do not care who people choose to sleep with. The geriatrics still shuffling around, frightened about those crazy gays and their effect on the military will hopefully go get their blue ID card soon.

And please, no morality speeches here. The behavior of the average soldier on a given weekend out in town (i.e. heading down to Kickers out in Clarksville with every intent of "hooking up" with some random girl) is straight off an episode of Jersey Shore. So let's not pretend that because some Joe wants to date another Joe that makes him worse than all of his buddies who are performing STD recon on the local girls.

Post script: we had one guy in OIF I that was as close to openly gay as you could be in the 101st, and he was a great soldier that was universally respected. DADT repeal is going to be fine. Breathe.

"Gays at NTC is as relevant as Muslim Headshrinker shooting people at Ft Hood. Enquiring minds are going to want to know, you might as well figure out what Big DoD wants to say. This is hardly Nth order effects. It is also relevant to the MAJs point above acting like it is all over but the shouting. It is going to be totally relevant to the people that the MAJ thinks should be eating crow?"

I've read this three times and I don't get what you're trying to say. I'm not trying to be a prick, I'm just genuinely confused here. Can you clarify?

We shouldn't be wasting breathe and thought on this issue really. It is just a sensational media driven issue. Point being the news moved on to the next story a month ago.

What we should be discussing instead.......

What do we need to do now to make sure the military is prepared for the next war? What is being done to address the shortcomings in the military that the current wars made so obvious? What happened to the discussions regarding the Failure of Generalship?

These are the issues that are truly important going forward.

"Who gives a shit?"

'Gay' is an old farts obsession and a big problem for Christers (they really have trouble with the rest of us, don't they). But in the real America with those of the right age to be recruited and to be serving, they don't care about who does what with which to whom. The rest of you cats: get a life.

If you were a Real American and a Real Christian and believe exactly like I do then the country, the military, and the world would be a better place

instead of that other kind of American/ Christian

Damn, don't you people understand?

and I'm no spring chicken myself.

Background: I'm the commander of a deployed Army Reserve company, and I had to read the script ot my Joes a while back. Anecdotal evidence ahoy.

Young soldiers didn't care. For the most part, they just sat through it, signed the sign in roster, and looked relatively uniniterested. When I asked for questions/comments, one guy (who is not the brightest) seemed to be confused about what his rights would be if a gay soldier tried to grope him/come on to him. Once assured the policy change doesn't obligate him to start having gay sex, he was fine. A few said they didn't care what people didn't care what people did in their private lives, as long as they did their jobs well. The sense I got from most of them (say, E6 and below, and the lieutenants) was that the entire thing was a non-issue. They just didn't find it particularly interesting or shocking that they might have to work with a gay person.

The only person who really pitched a fit was an old E8 who sat there cradling his head in his hands like I had just announced that Friday would be Piss on the American Flag day. He kept asking horrified questions like, "So if two male soldiers are dating, that's OKAY?!" After five minutes of going around and around, I got the sense that some of the young soldiers were becoming embarrassed by him. It was like watching a grown man freak out about cooties.

I think there's a real shift in the population under thirty. Even those people who are fairly right of center politically are starting to see all the hand wringing and panic about THE GAYS as not just unfounded but deeply, embarrassingly childish.

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_GAYS_IN_MILITARY_CONVENTION?SITE=TXNEW

Nothing happens over night-destroying a long held culture takes time and happens insidiously. Wait till they start putting LGBT stamps on service records and writing promotion board precepts that set quotas for #'s to be selected. If the transition of women is any predictor-there will be a huge a media circus the the first time an openly gay woman assumes command of a unit.

That's the point McCain made. And as John Lehman pointed out in a recent Proceedings article, in 20+ years the culture of Naval Aviation has been destroyed by repealing the combat exclusion law. It took time to accomplish that.

I think homosexuality is immoral. I do not agree with gay soldiers' lifestyles. Having said that, SPANISHMAIN is absolutely correct in the assertion that there are a plethora of soldiers with lifestyles that many leaders may not necessarily agree with. I have yet to meet any openly gay soldiers, but when I do, I will not treat them any differently than the Soldiers who are out conducting "STD recon" in the ever-present military town bar scene every weekend, or those who go and get blackout drunk five nights out of the week. I believe those are also immoral lifestyle choices, but I would never hold it against a soldier who does not allow his personal life to affect his work.

Additionally, I am certain that this is the correct decision for the DoD to have made. The military profession has long been a leader of social change, at least among the professional, educated, officers and senior NCOs, from integrating and accepting women, to integrating and accepting minorities in our military. There has always been resistance to these decisions, and there will be organizational friction in the coming months/years, but the military has shown that it can overcome stubborn opponents and inherent obstacles to adapt and make changes that set the example for the rest of society.

The ending of DADT is a good thing, used to upset me greatly we would throw out people who volunteered for service when so many other youths turn their noses up at the idea of service. Not sure where the idea that they couldn't fight camr from either, the Spartans seemed to do ok in battle last I checked.
That being said, those who do not see any problems with this are kidding themselves. One poster talked of EO, it is only a matter of time until homosexuals will be considered a protected class but there will be a lot of problems before that and bias against openly homosexual troops. The biggest headaches will come from frat problems, we waste more man hours now on this due to young men and women being in close proximity, isolated, lonely and in an austere environment, it will only get worse if COs and NCOs don't hammer fraternization problems hard and heavy. The real problems will pop up when those same COs and NCOs stop hammering people for frat out of fear of an EO complaint as many do now when it involves females.
I would also argue that this is nothing like the integration of minority groups or females, one (blacks) was idiotic on it's face and still amazes me to this day that it took that long to do integrate blacks. The other, females, is in my opinion an utter PC driven failure. I am sure my last comment will get some back lash but
just the way I saw it and continue to see it.

Based upon my experience as a soldier, the problem was not the gay soldiers, I served with a few, the problem is the inability of the Military Forces to deal with Homosexual/Lesbian soldiers. I OPENLY admit some of them made me uncomfortable but not to the point of murder.
Passing laws is NOT going to change minds, morality through legislation does not always work.
I wish I had an answer but only have questions

Most people are worrying about their next deployment or if the DOD is going to start cutting troops. They misrepresented the numbers on diy home tips the DADT surveys to get the answers they wanted and then crammed the ruling down our throats. At this point its over. I don't care anymore except as a conversation piece.