Tuesday, September 27, 2011 - 11:09 AM
This guest column by my old friend Tom Donnelly (yeah, we disagreed on invading Iraq, but he tends to be right about good food, rock music and the Civil War) makes me think we should compile a list of the "Top 10 books about the British getting it badly wrong in various wars." In addition to the Singapore book he cites, I'd suggest Andrew Gordon's The Rules of the Game: Jutland and British Naval Command. Not sure which World War I book to pick-there are so many-but maybe The Middle Parts of Fortune, which should be better known. If I'd read it, I probably also would suggest Cecil Woodham-Smith's The Reason Why. It's been sitting on my shelf for several years.
By coincidence, I was re-reading General Wavell's lectures on generalship last night over a robustly hopped IPA, and was struck at his emphasis on endurance as a key quality. I suspect that's a result of the blood and mud of the trench warfare of the Great War, and resulted in the view that stolidity trumps adaptability.
Meanwhile, old Starbucks provides his own overview of Auftragstaktik-fest.
Anyway, take it away, Tom D.
By Tom Donnelly
Best Defense guest right-wing
columnist
I have been following the discussion of auftragstaktik with interest not only for the debate about the nature of mission command but because it represents, if only indirectly, a larger conversation that needs to be had about the institutions of the Army and the U.S. military.
That discussion -- which was constantly open and lively during the years from Vietnam to Desert Storm -- has largely been set aside in the post-9/11 era. While the force has adapted rather well to new tactical and operational realities (and must wait for others, mostly civilians, to engage in a much-needed reconsideration of American strategy), its institutions haven't been as able to adapt. The primary cause may simply be that the combination of a small force, a couple of long wars fought in one-year increments by too many small-minded leaders (but civilian and uniformed), but that doesn't make the result any different. Stephan Schilling's recent guest column is a reminder that a system of mission command is something that not only enables gifted leaders to shine but improves the standard of "average" leadership. A system is the product of an enlightened institution, not just the emanation of an individual genius.
Some of the elements for recreating the Army as an institution are present in abundance - the cadre of young officers and NCOs who have figured out how to adapt to the conditions they've found themselves in for the past ten years is a priceless asset. On the other hand, if they never supplement the on-the-job education they've had with something more reflective, or, when that's done, never have the assets, opportunity or ability to translate that into a re-fashioned leadership development system, that asset will either be wasted or become a pinhole perspective. And, particularly in the current budget environment, carving out the time, dollars and other resources needed to reform, refit, and remake the Army as an institution is a monumental task.
Nor is the pace of day-to-day operations likely to ease, at least relative to the size of the service. No one knows what size the garrisons in Iraq and Afghanistan will be in a few years' time, or where the next fight will be. "No more land wars in Asia" is not a plan. The active Army is already on a downward slope to 520,000 and it's near-certain that the path will get steeper. The troop-to-task ratio is headed down, not up. The minimum price for instituting any durable system of mission command would be a revived TRADOC, one the Army's golden child but lately a neglected if not abused bastard.
Rather than figuring out how Guderian got it right, it may be more instructive for American officers to study how the British got it wrong. The British army, despite the many innovations developed in World War I, could never escape the constant grind of constabulary deployments along the imperial frontier; by 1942 they had been out-thought and out-fought by both the Germans in Europe and the Japanese in Southeast Asia. And the intellectual rot and become a moral rot: leaders quarreled with one another and did not trust their subordinates. The British army lost, in part, because it expected to lose. Brian Farrell's The Defense and Fall of Singapore is an acidly honest appraisal of the consequences of a failed military system: "The system produced the plans, men and means," he writes. "It, not they, invited disaster....From 1921 to 1942 the British Empire's military system insist[ed that] the situation must fit the plan at all levels."
Indeed, the discussions in this space show general agreement in regard to the nature of mission command. Paul Yingling is surely right that the conditions of modern combat, particularly for those who serve in the American military, call for a mission-command approach; would any thoughtful veteran of the post-9/11 wars disagree? And a dynamic leader needn't wait for perfect conditions to improve practices in his unit.
But the challenge is rather in how to systematize, as best as can be done, the Clausewitzian virtues, the coup d'oeil, the courage d'esprit. What we call "mission command" the Prussian described as the product of a cultivated temperament. The student of Napoleonic brilliance could still argue that "it is the average result" - the italics are in the original (or Peter Paret's version of it) - "that indicates the existence of military genius."
Thomas Donnelly, Haupt-uber-director of the Center for Defense Studies at the American Enterprise Institute, graduated from the Sidwell Friends School in 1971, at the height of the Vietnam War, despite regularly skipping Quaker Meeting to let his freak flag fly.
Rules is a pretty good book, Initiative seems to erratically come and go in the Royal Navy. Fisher kind of systematized the Navy sent everyone to school from the Tars to Dartmouth.
The lack on initiative might have just been a big ship or Grand Fleet problem. At the same time the grand fleet was showing NO Initiative, the Royal Navy was the dragging gunboats across hundreds of mile of bush to Lake Victoria, operating far up the Euphrates and Tigris, hunting down the Konigsberg on the Rufigi, and eventually far up the Dvina River in Russia (about anywhere there was a "heavy dew").
Submarines, coastal forces, and destroyers may have drained away all the leadership w any initiative.
The German Battle Fleet by end of WWI wouldn't even fight, everyone w initiative who wanted to fight had voluteered for U-boats, coastal forces, or aviation.
I wonder is SOCOM is providing a more conducive environment for Leaders who can think out of the box a little bit?
Andrew Gordon’s ‘The Rules of the Game: Jutland and British naval Command” is a fine well researched book but I found that Robert K. Massie’s “Dreadnought” followed by “Castles of Steel” his two volume history of the naval dimension of the coming of the WW1 and Britain’s victory at sea in that war is actually better and more comprehensive.
But I think Gordon is better on the specific question on the table, of where the Royal Navy went wrong.
Thanks,
Tom
aufstragtaktik - A bitter pill to swallow
Wavell stated, "the essential qualities of the individual good soldier are endurance, skill at arms, and the valor of discipline with some pungency of independence."
In keeping with Wavell's idea of a bit of spicy independence, I am reminded of the story of Lance Corporal Smyth, who had fallen ill and reported to the aid station, only to find everyone absent. Smyth noted the medical supplies were carried in a large chest, and upon opening it up, noted on the inside of the lid was a printed sheet with a list of ailments, followed by a diagnosis for each, as well as a remedy corresponding to a number.
Thus, if one was constipated he should take a number nine pill. Smyth read the sheet carefully and decided he needed a number seven pill. Alas, the number seven bottle was empty. Instead, he decided to take a number two and a number five, which mathematically seemed logical. . .he was buried that night.
Sorry, I ran out of things to say about aufstragtaktik or even schwerpunkt and such. . ..forgive me for failing to address the author's absicht (intent).
Moving on from the fictional Mr Smyth ...
... let's think of the time in Somalia, when medical supplies were opened and found to have been packed in an order very pleasing to souls in the homeland. This didn't mean a shortage of pill #7, it meant that medical personnel seeking that pill might have to hunt through a great number of chests to find it. A military doctor repacked such supplies into a one-chest-supplies-all the order required for prompt effective attention to the sick and wounded of the Battle of Mogadishu.
For this, he was sharply reprimanded.
The military history of the British and just about every other persistent practitioner of the military arts abounds in examples of getting things wrong. The Germans made several strategic and tactical error in WWII; overlooked by many in the history of the Japanese campaign in Malaya in 1941 mentioned above was that the Japanese army in this was much like a guerrilla force, unimaginable to conventional military minds.
British and Japanese planners had been as one in their understanding that no invasion force could possibly bring and land sufficient motorized transport to conquer in the region. So what the Japanese did was land their force in Malaya to steal every damn bicycle they could find. Just as much of the German army invading France in 1940 did it on horseback, most of the Japanese army in 1941 moved on stolen civilian bicycles. Allied survivors of the campaign recall clearly that the first thing many of them heard of the invasion was Japanese soldiers chatting, cracking jokes, laughing ... atop effectively silent bikes. This made the first arrivers easy to kill, which in strategic terms didn't matter much to the Japanese planners. There were plenty more bike riders further back, ready to take to the Allied enemy on foot.
Rules of the Game, dovetails nicely w Correlli Barnett's Engage the Enemy More Closely. The Brits did not have the overwhelming strength in WWII that they had in WWI. Their economy and industry were faltering by that time. They showed more initiative and performed better in WW II. Some of their leadership like Cunningham, Pridham-Whipple, and Mountbatten were pretty good. I am with Barnett all the way until he tries to act like Operation Neptune was the biggest naval battle in history. It may have been one of the biggest logistics exercises in history, but the Germans didn't understand Navy, they barely had a Navy, and they didn't bother to show up for Neptune.
Putting aside the fact that he shares my Dad's name (but is actually no relation), Tom Donnelly's point about the actual capacity of many of these folks, given appropriate training, resources, and assignment, is so often overlooked in our on-going dissection of matters higher and lower.
The really important points, the changing ratio of troops-to-tasks, and the more esoteric one (Land War in Asia Not and Option) really underscore the central issue: What future challenges will we face, and how prepared will we be for them (based on the next spin of the resource/staffing/cost wheel).
The last war is not a presage of what the next one will be (which may, in fact, be a land war in Asia), but increasing the breadth and scope of preparedness of an ever-smaller standing army (including for core tasks) is all the more essential if the actual plan can only be effected by the bulk labor of temporary assignees and national guard deployments.
Who provides the knowledge, direction and operational core to essentially outsource the bulk tasks (lots of boots on the ground), when required?
We have the most overwhelmingly equipped, trained, staffed, and supported Army in history ... and they cannot win, they have not won, they will not prevail in either of the pissy little wars we've attempted in the past ten years (go ahead: call Iraq a victory. Harrumph). So maybe just maybe is not the problem a bit more basic than the strategy-du-jour?
And our national structure for security and defense, the vaunted All-Volunteer Force, doesn't that deserve some time under the spotlight for its (abject lack of) efficacy and success?
Based on their record, both the Army and the AVF are candidates for radical reform, not some schoolboy chamfering on the easy edges. The first act of preparing for the future should lie in examining the failures of our recent past. Abject failures. Iraq. Afghanistan. The US Army. The AVF. You cannot fix things within the system if the system itself is broken.
Ducky:
It's a great army, but one constantly in search of the kind of war that it is designed for---not becoming the public works department on steriods for failing states (COIN).
Some have properly raised the question of how these recent wars might adversely impact the readiness for more traditional wars (ala Guderian and Rommel): Ready, aim, win hearts and minds, fire. Target destroyed; rebuild target.
These problem sets like Fallujah, where we can win the localized fight, but with huge externalized costs, are just plain hard on all this good ol' army stuff, and impossible for a local commander to reasonably comprehend and optimize. Killing enemies is easy, but not always smart.
(This from a guy who spent four years in the 1970s as a speed bump on the Inter-german Border waiting to play out bounding over-watches with my tank).
Having physically assessed much of Iraq's infrastructure at a system level, we could have kicked over that country (as a functioning entity) with very little effort. Occupying it, redesigning and (arguably) rebuilding it was a whole different undertaking.
Requirements vs Resources Mismatch
Usually the title topic above is an invitation to bitch about the relative lack of assets to deal with a relative wealth of taskings. In the current case, however, we have more of EVERYTHING ... except the ability to prevail, to win, to ... Jesus it's a long time since this topic was raised ... to even define victory.
The requirement we really like is force-on-force in a state-vs-state conventional war playing out on a set-piece battlefield. The requirement we actually have is for a dirty little combat with non-state actors who seem far more agile than us ... because we insist on heavy, on fancy; because we've brought the military we like instead of the one we need.
I come from an order-of-battle era: tell me how many of what we have and how many of the same things they have and I'll tell you who's ahead. But our chosen foes (we went there, remember, we blithely picked these fights) have made a virtue of lightness, of flexibility, of resilience, of indifference to the kit of the modern military and of this OOB we have none. To which we put up our grand AVF, Ft Bragg's best, Fort Benning's best, etc. What works? SOF. What works? Focused intel. What works? A decent attendance to the needs of the host people: not COIN; foreign aid, NGO assistance, a civilian-side effort to make a people a viable entity, to give them a real economy.
And meanwhile, back in the States, the Iron Triangle continues to feed itself with what it loves, big contracts for fancy toys lightyears in technology ahead of IEDs. The IEDs are kicking our ass ... and we responded with the F-22, the F-35, the VIRGINIA-class, the glitzy crap we can't even get in-theater. And we puff up China, not because there's a scrap brewing there but because if there were, it would need the kinds of things we're buying.
All proving that dollars can't win the wars we have. So let's cut off the dollars and use brains instead. Beef up SOF, beef up the intel stuff, beat the crap out of the bad guys ... on their own turf ... in their own way ... and try to get the whole damned effort off the backs of the indiginous peoples whose lands we made our playpen. Having a military bigger than those of the next 20 nations combined (the next 20!) has not brought victory against a shifting band of ragtag irregulars. Let's stop discussing how to do it better and start talking about what should replace it, lock/stock/& barrel. The US military is bankrupt as a fighting force.
Ducky,
What have they lost so far? Where are they being defeated? And do I have to remind you AGAIN, that a volunteer military has been the norm historically for the American Military? I swear, if you trip over a rock you would try to blame it on the AVF.
Iraq (or you've a strange definition of victory. Afghanistan. BT/AR
Can't define "lost"? What about "victory"? Where have we won, post WW2?
We have had this argument before, we have very different opinions on what happened in Vietnam and Korea (Both fought with conscript Armies Ducky but full of volunteers) and why.
As for now, please Ducky, inform me how we have lost? FG42, the conflict is still going on in Afghanistan, how would you define victory?
The Cold War.
Upthread from RubberDucky: "...because we've brought the military we like instead of the one we need." Arriving at, what I believe, is the crux of the issue. Mission command, auftrag-static, whatever are all well and good and I do not deny necessary for expedient success. However...
We took the military that we bought (or brought if you prefer) to Iraq and Afghanistan. But what military did we need and what do we need right now? You cannot say that the AVF is losing these actions or has been incapable. Like ESIII is saying: we win the battles. Do you really want the military identifying the overall objectives of the war(s)? Turns out - much like that lesson we should have learned in Vietnam - that winning and losing battles is not relevant to success in Iraq or Afghanistan. And so 'win' and 'lose' are dependent on national strategy. That is what determines the military that we 'need.'
The ends do not justify the means, they identify the means required. Do not bother to define the ends, and we still have not (only been 10 years, maybe we will soon....), and the composition of our military will not matter.
Fairy stories about Afghanistan
The link below is of a book excerpt published in London this week. Likely, it's time-bombed for copyright reasons. Look it up now before it's withdrawn.
I have no opinion about its accuracy. Its differences from what most of us think as the stuff that took us to Afghanistan suggests that victory seldom comes to invading/occupying nations that little understand the history and ethos of the country they've come to. It brings to my mind the African saying that the wisest man cannot lick the back of his own neck.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/27/10-myths-about-afghanistanbwte
The US military lost the Vietnam War, but not because of anything it did or did not do, or anything it did not do well. Quite simply, the Vietnam War was fought on a faulty premise of "domino theory politics." Kennan, the author of the theory, never intended it to be an absolute all-purpose theory to be employed without regard to historical context.
Within the appropriate historical context, the Vietnam War could not be won and should not have been fought. For essentially this same reasons, neither the Afghanistan War nor the Iraq War should have been fought. For all three of these wars, the goals were not realistic nor achievable. Because the goals were not achievable, the wars debilitated and weakened our military as a whole and to our national morale.
To draw the conclusion that these disasters are the result of the military (whether draft or volunteer; whether on a tactical or a strategic level) is foolish and causes further unnecessary debilitation to our military as a whole and to our national morale.
There is nothing wrong and everything right about analyzing these conflicts so to draw necessary and useful lessons for application in future conflict and so to improve our military capabilities and our troops' survivability. Bravo, and keep at it. But to think there is a fundamental flaw in the military itself because of these debacles is missing the point. This much like criticizing the failure of a screwdriver to drive a nail.
And, yes, it is difficult to concieve that it will ever be to America's advantage to fight a land war in asia. Vizzini was right about that.
I started reading this post with considerable skepticism because there is something I feel has dogged the whole auftrags-taktik discussion and that is that the armies used as examples to model, most obviously the German, actually lost their major wars, while the armies being disparaged, the US and now the British army, ended up winning theirs.
This doesn't mean there are not things to learn from the clearly very effective German Army nor does it suggest that the Brits and Americans didn't make mistakes. But despite losing battles, I cannot think of a lost British war since the American War of Independence. In fact, considering the Malay emergency vs the Vietnam War I would say that Britain has the best win/lose ratio of any major Western country since the Renaissance.
This may all be related to the old Sun Tzu principle that good strategy can compensate for bad tactics but good tactics cannot compensate for bad strategy and that the Germans and Japanese were good at tactics but terrible at strategy. But it would be nice if people would address the apparent puzzle that the poorly performing armies actually ended up winning while the effective armies ended up losing, before they assume that the Germans or Japanese got it so right and the British (and Americans) apparently got it so wrong.
I would like to briefly correct myself after a brief search of Britain's military history. Britain did indeed lose wars since the American War of Independence, to the Boers in the First Anglo-Boer war, and in Afghanistan in several rounds. Whether one considers the Suez expedition a lost war is perhaps a question of when something constitutes a "war." But it seems Britain too has its share of defeats in the 19th century.
I would like to briefly correct myself after a brief search of Britain's military history. Britain did indeed lose wars since the American War of Independence, to the Boers in the First Anglo-Boer war, and in Afghanistan in several rounds. Whether one considers the Suez expedition a lost war is perhaps a question of when something constitutes a "war." But it seems Britain too has its share of defeats in the 19th century.
... once again ignored, to say it was the US and UK that beat the Germans. Best for those two nations were the activities of the Soviet Union. The Germans were doomed in some degree when they weren't able to fuel their African force any more, but it was the Soviet advance in the east that chewed up most German forces and led to the Reich's historical use-by date. Soviet commanders believe the invasions through France and Sicily were sideshows, and, measured by the force commitment to the east, Italy and France, it seems the German high command saw it that way, too.
The apparent puzzle that poorly performing armies can actually end up winning while effective armies end up losing is easily explained in historical context.
The commenter did not raise the example of the Confederacy versus the Union, but the explanation in that context is shared by the successes of the US in WWII and British Empire.
The winning countries armies had greater reserves of manpower and material. I mentioned the American Civil War because it is now fairly commonly recognized that the Union had greater reserves of manpower and material. The Union had greater technological and industrial capacity as well. Now, the Confederacy demonstrated the advantages of better tactical leadership -- and, at some points, better strategic leadership. And, it was the Confederacy that developed the submarine.
But, as with the Confederacy, early German and Japanese successes in WWII finally gave way to with the greater reserves of manpower and material of the USSR and the US.
Yes, the Axis militaries were mishandled -- no question about that. One cannot divorce these militaries from their economic base, however.
We tend to overglamorize German performance in a losing cause. Its also very trendy to criticize senior officers no matter what the situation. There is more to waging successful war then agressive small unit tactics. In North Africa, for example, the British rightly realized that disruption of German logistic routes through the Med would seal Rommel's fate. And it did.
And lack of preparation and proper equipment for the Eastern Front would overcome any short lived tactical successes they might have gained.
@ES III asked how to define victory
Good question, Eric. It forces me to try to organize my thoughts. Let me give it a try:
Victory today isn't like victory in WW2, with unconditional surrender of the enemy, a triumphal march into his capital, etc. I think victory today can be defined simply as "achieving our overall objective." So.....in that regard:
1. Vietnam. Our objective was to prevent the takeover of the Republic of South Vietnam by the North. We saw the conflict as communist aggression, part of the domino theory (the VN saw it as a civil war and a war of national liberation). Result? The North united the country in 1975, we didn't achieve our objective, and we didn't win the victory. (Funny thing, though, the domino theory didn't happen, and VN is today developing close economic and mil-to-mil ties with the US, not to mention infiltrating our cuisine with Pho, Summer Rolls, and such stuff).
2. Iraq I. Our objective was to get the Iraquis out of Kuwait. We accomplished that. Victory.
3. Iraq II. Our objective (after the phony WMD justification was exposed) was to get rid of the dictator and bring Democracy to the Iraqi people, who would greet us as Liberators. We got rid of Sadam, but after many years, billions of dollars, an insurgency, and thousands of lives, no one is claiming that Democracy has taken root....and it's not clear that Iraq won't revert back to sectarian and tribal divisions after we leave. No victory.
4. Afghanistan. What actually is our objective anyway? It isn't OBL and Al Qaeda, who are already fragmented, on the run, and dispersed into many different countries. Given the huge amount of resources we have poured into Afghanistan, our goal apparently is to bring Democracy to the Afghan people and to raise their country up from the Stone Age to at least the level of a Developing Country. Slight problem: there is the Taliban, who don't share our vision and don't appreciate our presence in their country, and there are the national and regional leaders who seem unable to put national goals above their own personal interests. So have we achieved our objective such that we can declare victory in Afghanistan? The most I've heard anyone (including Petraeus the eternal optimist) say is that if we stick to it and don't give up, we might achieve our goals and be able to declare victory. It might take another 10 years and many billions of dollars (not to mention casualties), but it's winnable. So my conclusion: If we pull out now, we will not have achieved our objective, and we can't call it a victory. But we just don't have the national will or the resources to stick around for another decade....so victory is just not in the cards.
Almost all of your "thoughts' are political in that post and not very accurate.
1.-Vietnam? We screwed them, plain and simple. The South went to the Peace Accords under our promise that we would support them with Air and funding, Congress then cut them off. The first time the NVA tried to invade the South en masse they were crushed by our Air Support, we then cut it off later via our Gov't. We have had this argument prior, this is an area I will not agree with you on, we betrayed them.
2.-Iraq I? Thanks
3.-Iraq II? You do not know yet, Democracy is taking hold and the whole thing is still ongoing but it's a little to soon to say it was not a victory. The "Phony" WMDs? Come on, every Intelligence org in the world pretty much thought they had them, was it a small part of why we invaded? I am sure it was but let's not add comments like that to the conversation. The corruption and tribal divisions will always be there, that is the way it is in the middle east but they will lessen over time and this will be the start. I tend to go with the RAND study on changing the Middle East and know it won't happen in a dramatic fashion.
4.-Afghanistan? Have had this argument before as well, you want to say that we ignored the combat and problems in Afghanistan for to long, great, will agree with you but we are doing it now and any counter-insurgency takes about 10 years, so while the Village Stability Program is working I am not sure if we will have enough time. As for why we are still there, if you think it is just about Afghanistan then I would suggest reading more about their neighbors. The amount of activity being driven by the TB and AQ is way down compared to just a couple of years ago, so something is working.
I admit that many of my comments were "political." But the objectives of our wars are mostly political, and I was trying to assess whether we achieved "victory" by achieving our (political) goals.
I'm not sure that we're in that much disagreement about the facts. It seems that our conclusions are different mainly because of different definitions of "victory." Anyway, regarding your comments:
1. I totally admit that the US betrayed South Vietnam. We basically pulled out when we finally got tired and left them holding the bag. Visit any Vietnamese community in LA, Houston, or Dorchester (in my town of Boston), and you'll pick up that feeling of sadness and anger. Talk to any thoughtful US vet who advised a South VN battalion, or who worked with civilians in the South, and you'll see that he's still deeply bothered by leaving his counterparts behind. But the bottom line is that the US pulled out without achieving its objectives. So we did not achieve the victory.
2. Iraq II. Yes, it's not possible to predict what's going to happen with Iraqi Democracy years down the road. But if you judge the situation as of when the US pulled out of Iraq, can you really say that we achieved our objective? When our forces left the field, had we created a democratic society like what Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, Rice, Paul Bremer, etc. were talking about? I don't think so.
3. Afghanistan. Yes, the TB and AQ activity is down, because of the NATO troop presence. But the objective is to build an effective Afghan government and army and police forces. When NATO forces pull out in a year or two, will we have achieved that objective? I agree that it's too soon to tell, but a lot of knowledgeable folks think that as soon as the US and other troops leave, the Afghans are going to revert back to the way things were before. In fact, many folks believe that it's inevitable, given the fact that the US is not going to engage there for another 10 years.
I think you believe that if the military's tactical actions are successful, then it means that we're winning. But my point is that winning the war is a political end-state (as von C. said), and we could win most of the battles and still not win the war. As was the case in Vietnam.
Your political comments and posting were of a personal nature and little to do with " We see, therefore, that war is not merely an act of policy but a true political instrument, a continuation of political intercourse carried on with other means." It's no big deal, your politics drip over into FP and Military posts all the time, I know mine do pretty often but let's not act like you were doing the whole Clausewitz thing with it, those were personal politics.
Vietnam-We could have held and could have at least allowed the South to hold if we had done what we promised them, we talk about the moral high ground, doing what is right, our view in the world perception in how we act in war, etc....but yet abandon someone we fought with for almost two decades. As for going by a community full of people from the area, grew up in a town that is about 40% SE Asian now, well aware of their feelings. That winner of a choice was made during your "Cold War" Conscript Victory Ducky.
Iraq II-Our initial objectives have been accomplished, if the democracy thing catches on and spreads, great, but that is going to be a while. Rummy and others may have screwed the pooch on how the occupation was conducted it does not mean it was lost as many seem to think.
Afghanistan-The knowledgeable folks are right, if we leave now I would imagine that the Police and Afghan National Army and other forces would fall apart but I do think they could be taken up a level and be good enough to keep the TB and AQ down and out in time. The Village Stability Operations (VSO) are working and as much as I hate doing some of the stuff it is the key to the strategic victory over there and is making a lot of in roads. The one weakness of the VSO program is time, I can only hope we do not turn our backs on the Afghans who have aided us like the Vietnamese. As for objectives, do not forget about the location of the country itself and the strategic advantage it offers.
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