Quote of the day: TNC on the Civil War's role in the birth of black America

Posted By Thomas E. Ricks Thursday, September 15, 2011 - 11:48 AM Share

I'd never thought of black America this way, the way Ta-Nehisi Coates describes it in the quotation below. It makes sense to me, in terms of politics. But I worry that it sets aside the contribution of African-Americans to the country and the culture before the war.

I am a child of war. The Civil War birthed modern African-American political identity. Our political leadership can be traced back to many of the soldiers who served in that War. The notions of freedom and the franchise, and specifically the notion that these are things worth dying for, come from War. Our century-long journey into the American polity can be traced back to Port Hudson and Milliken's Bend, to Harriet Tubman leading Union raiders into Confederate territory. This is not abstract -- the first proposals for the franchise were for black Union veterans.

I also liked this unrelated comment of his:

At some point you just have to say that, conservatively, a portion of Rupert Murdoch's empire was a criminal enterprise.

Indeed, so far 13 people have been arrested in connection with alleged hacking crimes by Murdoch newspapers. No, make that 16. Does that mean News Corp. might eventually face RICO-like charges?

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JPWREL

5:31 PM ET

September 15, 2011

It must be Obama's fault

It is amusing watching the super-duper patriots on the 'fair and balanced' FOX News (an oxymoron) squirm in their chairs while they duck and dodge this issue. Surely, someone there must be burning the midnight oil to try to figure out a way to lay Murdoch’s problems at Obama feet?

PBACON33

6:35 PM ET

September 15, 2011

Agree with TNC

I definitely agree on the point of black identity, but furthermore, most forms of national, political identity come down to how things get shaped during wartime. If one looks at wars such as the French Revolution vs. the American Revolution or even the Russian Civil War, one can see a significant shift in how individuals conceive of and participate in government due to the level of violence in the wars. For example, the comparative lack of violence during the American Revolution vs. the ultra-violent Reign of Terror and military campaigns inside France during the early years of the Revolution fundamentally altered the polities of each country: while the United States avoided major radicalization and embraced a stable republican government pretty quickly, France’s violent “growing pains” led to the delay of a stable (excluding the “stability” of Napoleon) until 1815. One could also make the case that violence and war led to different identities for people like the Bohemians (e.g. the Hussite Rebellions maintaining one specific, proto-Protestant identity; after the 30 Years War and the violent extirpation of Protestantism in Bohemia, it turns into a major Catholic center).

LITTLEMANTATE

8:27 PM ET

September 15, 2011

Every Modern nation has had a committed core

who created a corpus of literature, national mythos and the- initially voluntary- institutions necessary for nurturing the new identity.

For African-Americans, it was the Black Middle Class of the Northeast who gave shape and a political identity to the larger group. The notion of being black Americans, participants in the larger American project, was an idea that they defended at a time when most philanthropic plans were still stuck on repatriation to Africa.

ERIC_STRATTONIII

10:25 PM ET

September 15, 2011

@Littlemantate

Sounds like you have read a lot on this subject, any suggested readings?

PBACON33

3:35 PM ET

September 16, 2011

Very true

Definitely true, though much of this literature and experience that the Northeast Blacks created (e.g. Harlem Renaissance, WEB DuBois, etc.) had ties to the after-effects of the Civil War. As Black Americans fought and died to ensure their freedom during the war as part of the larger war effort, they also had to continue fighting during and after Reconstruction. The lingering effects of Reconstruction, whether through the failure of providing a sufficient economic base to African-Americans or the (somewhat) soft racism of the North after the War, comes down to the Civil War, the fight for freedom, and the failure of the American government to continue providing for African-Americans following the end of Reconstruction. In a sense, extrapolating this further, one could argue that TNC should consider the end of Reconstruction as the end of the Civil War...victory for the North, reintegration for the South, and a treacherous defeat of African-Americans.

PBACON33

3:35 PM ET

September 16, 2011

Above...

Treacherous in the sense that they were betrayed by the central government...

LITTLEMANTATE

3:52 PM ET

September 21, 2011

Eric, good question

for which I have no good answer. I've read a little, but not so much.

While typing I had the 19th-century Ukrainians as the clearest example of an intellectually nurtured nationalism in my mind, I was also thinking of Romanticism in general. I can't think of a particular scholar, who wrote about the development of Romantic Nationalism, which was so crucial for Modern Nationalism, to suggest. The same goes for African-American history, specifically. I was thinking of a variety of historical and biographical examples when typing. I use the term Nationalism, but non-national group identities such as we see with African-Americans would also be applicable.

I can think of three theorists that would be beneficial. Benedict Anderson, for non-European and colonial peoples, including US Americans, is an important theorist. He argues that nationalism was a result of expanded access to information and the printed word, and a repudiation of old-fashioned monarchies. Anthropologist Ernest Gellner is another useful source. Gellner wrote that modern national cultural, including linguistic, homogeneity was a result of industrialization and the rise of the bureaucratic state. Both Anderson and Gellner see national identity as invented, or imagined to use Anderson's term. I'd only say that one can go too far with the invented identity meme and say that all nations were fictional entities reflecting the needs of ruling elites. National experiments, that worked, had preexisting cultural or group identities to develop from. They weren't invented from whole cloth. This also goes for some of the nations that were created by fiat by the Colonial powers in the 19th and 20th centuries, contra the claims of some post-colonial theorists.
Anthony D. Smith is another theorist that would be very helpful, perhaps the best person to start with. Smith distinguishes several different types of Nationalism, civic and ethnic.

ASTONISHED VAG

12:43 AM ET

September 16, 2011

But on the flip-side...

There is a discontent amongst middle class White Americans who feel as if they are shouldering a burden left over from the Civil War - that being the dependence of lower income Black individuals on the welfare of our state and federal governments.

I wonder if Black folk will ever be free. Freed slaves had to rely on a governmental acknowledgement of something that was rightfully theirs since the moment of their birth (freedom) and because this freedom was awarded by White folk and not won by Black folk, it doesn't surprise me that there may be generational dependance on the state.

KUNINO

7:59 AM ET

September 16, 2011

No doubt about it, criminal conduct made money for Murdoch

... in Britain. But it's fascinating to recognise that Murdoch foes, who are many, have vainly tried in other nations where he publishes and broadcast to establish there is similar criminality there -- or here. This points to the reality that the forms of corruption highlighted in Britain recently are more a characteristic of general newspaper practice than some Murdoch peculiarity. And it's been pointed out in London that outside studies of such practices established that the now-dead News of the World was not the worst practitioner. Other newspapersanycluding a few non-Murdoch "qualities" committed more of such crimes. In some cases, much more.

This implies that the right answer to the question about a RICO-style investigation of Murdoch in Britain is virtually certain to be "no", on the ground that it would involve and probably bring down most of the national papers in the United Kingdom.

There are however extensive official investigations of newspaper corruption going on at present. Sure, the phone hacking is serious. Potentially more serious seems to have been the wholesale corruption of individual British police. This started with cash payment for tips to news stories, and in some cases festered to the point that some few journalists tried to use corrupt police as their personal enforcers. The dear old days of the impeccably honest British bobbies seems to have vanished a few generations ago.

Does any US newspaper pay cash to police for news tips?

CHRISBIKER

9:34 AM ET

October 13, 2011

The lingering effects

The lingering effects of Reconstruction, whether through the failure of providing a sufficient economic base exercise bike review to African-Americans or the (somewhat) soft racism of the North after the War, comes down to the Civil War, the fight for freedom, and the failure of the American government

CHRISBIKER

9:36 AM ET

October 13, 2011

The lingering effects

The lingering effects of Reconstruction, whether through the failure of providing a sufficient economic base to African-Americans or the (somewhat) soft racism of the North after the War, comes best exercise bike down to the Civil War, the fight for freedom, and the failure of the American government to continue providing for African-Americans following the end of Reconstruction