at Camp Johnson for junior Marines waiting to join their service support schools.

First question (remember everyone there had just finshed boot camp and MCT) "Who is buying a car before you leave?" (probably 40%-70% raise their hands depending on the class).

Second question (to random Marines in the audience) "What kind of car are you buying?"

After I entertained enough answers I'd then tell them what I was driving as an O-3 and I would, in an entertaining manner, skewer the knuckleheads who were buying anything nicer (on the assumption they weren't trust fund babies. No one would fess up to that one).

It was an hour, and no idea of the impact, but I was able to get them to interact, inso much as I might have been the first, or one of the first officers they had really talked to not in the "boot camp mold" so that might have gotten me a little more attention than normal. No idea if anything ever continued on that model.

But until it's no longer part of the lance coconut culture to get hammered on the weekends, blow your cash twice a month, and get married to get out of the barracks, I don't care what anyone tells them, and how many classes they're ordered to attend. If they're sergeants and corporals don't care, neither will they no matter how many times the 1st Sgt chews their butt. And that's not even accounting for what happens when units return from deployments after a decade at war.

And don't even get me started on the payday lenders (though mercifully NC got rid of them IIRC).

And for the record, there are actually more strip joints out the front gate of New River Air Station and SOI than there is for Camp Lejeune (just the pleasantly named Driftwood). Chalk that one up to the Geiger Tigers.

If the CO or CG makes a business off-limits, and a Marine (or any service member) visits the place, they have just violated a lawful order, right? That's why Court Street in J-Ville died a slow death in the 80's, because the chain of command knew the place was trouble and wanted to keep Marines and sailors away. Didn't keep the business on Highway 24 from flourishing, though.

I was reading your comments yesterday with Jim Gourley and I noted that he explained how entire units were forced to sit through mind-numbing classes that probably included sexual harassment, personal finance, racial diversity, suicide prevention, dental hygiene, domestic abuse, information security, etc. Probably all heavily Powerpointed as well. I felt the pain just in his written words.

You mentioned that one or a few at the most NCO, SNCO and JO might attend a class on a subject as representatives of their units. They then would return and train downward in their roles as mentors and leaders. I think this is the right approach. Why waste an entire training day to reach out to the 10% when the Corporals and Sergeants can do that for their men, as is their job? The idea being to keep it all in the family, lead, and try to nip problems in the bud before they reach the Gunny, 1st Sgt., XO or skipper (God help you then).

Just a good illustration in the differences in leadership mindset between the Army and Marine Corps. And yes, it all boils down to leadership. When I f'd up as a PFC or LCPL, my section chief and platoon sergeant got reamed as surely as I did. That's the nature of things.

Better to promote the best servicemembers who will avoid those places on their own accord than to block them all. Isolate your worst troops and nourish your best.

I recommended it in another thread a couple days ago, but Rajan's "Fault Lines" does an excellent job of connecting the relatively poor quality of public education to a wide variety of societal problems. His thesis is basically that the quality of education hasn't kept up with the demand for increasingly skilled workers, leading to a widening wealth gap and stagnant if not decreasing real earnings for a large number of households because they are unqualified to hold good jobs. The short term solution chosen by politicians was to expand credit to lower-income families, which led to the inflated house prices, which led to increasingly risky lending to people who were incapable of actually calculating the cost of their home loans, which ultimately led to the housing bubble and collapse of the economy.

Talking to a teacher who has been teaching in LA and San Diego high schools for a few years, mostly high school English to predominantly Hispanic emigrant classes, she noted that students who had emigrated recently typically performed better than students who had been educated entirely the the LA school system. It's also telling that PME for junior Marines include MCIs on spelling and math, which are things that should have been mastered during their primary education.

But better quality education is expensive, and its returns don't show up for a decade or more, which does little to help a politician reelected.

"The short term solution chosen by politicians was to expand credit to lower-income families, which led to the inflated house prices, which led to increasingly risky lending to people who were incapable of actually calculating the cost of their home loans, which ultimately led to the housing bubble and collapse of the economy."

Who was getting rich of derivative, credit default swaps, and mortgage backed securities? The collapse of the economy was caused by AIG, Lehman Brothers, Goldman-Sachs etc.... (remember wall st buys and sells Pols the converse is not true). They were the sweethearts getting rich! Remember "Privatize Profits, Socialize Risk !" This thing was not caused by Fanny, Freddy, or the Pols they were just working around the edges.

Pols are not smart enough to understand derivatives, I remember when the retirement fund for Orange Co CA was getting fat off of derivatives the manager was a hero. When they lost their Ass(ets) they tried to put him in jail.

That's all absolutely true. I just don't know enough about securities to talk intelligently about them, or about the financial industry to advocate appropriate regulatory increases that will push risk back onto financiers, causing them to be more cautious, without stultifying the economy. Also, education is a government responsibility, and even if the financial industry had wanted to make massive profits on securitized mortgages, the housing bubble would have been prevented if more (especially low-income) families were able to calculate the costs of the mortgages, weigh them against their incomes, and make more prudent choices.

I wouldn't exactly call Mila Kunis a "trash fat cow."

That's another argument agains soldier maturity (in certain areas). In terms of relationships, many military service members are easily several years behind. It doesn't help that, like businesses, many women prey on military service members' naievete.

Military service members get married, on average, much earlier than their civilian counterparts. I'd like to think it's a function of maturity, but in reality, it's social naiveté, coupled with a healthy social safety net (namely, financial) for getting married.

And by the way, consider this: It's the weekend and the sergeant major needs someone to cut the grass. Who gets called on to do it? The single people in the barracks. There's only a few iterations of this nonsense before the enlisted begin looking for workarounds (e.g., quick marriages).

I wouldn't call Mila Kunis that either... certainly not! Not sure how that relates to the type of girls who go to military towns looking for young guys to prey on. Did I miss something?

a fat trashy cow.

When I was in SOI at Camp Geiger, NC, we were issued a blacklist. The reasoning behind it was that no one would reasonably go to any of the named places without intending to commit an illegal act.
Mandatory military education is a joke. Most often the monthly classes are taught by a random non-rate who knows no more about his subject than anyone in the audience; they just give him the PowerPoint slides and he improvises. Well, he reads the slides.
I did once get a class on financial management from a major who had studied finance in college. That was the best 15 minutes I ever spent in a military classroom.
Speaking of officers, are they immune to this kind of poor decision-making? The only real difference between them and enlisted guys is a college degree, and these days a college degree more often than not means a whole lot of debt taken on in pursuit of a goal of highly debatable usefulness. So why would we automatically trust COs to competently advise/control the financial decisions of subordinates?

Based on my experience, four years of college adds up to passing familiarity with personal finance due to student loans and spending what little money they earned in college on stupid shit. I think O's tend to make the sort of mistakes that PFCs and LCpls make, but they do it in college, when they aren't surrounded by predatory lendors, so the consequences are less severe.

A Fort Benning classmate of mine blew his entire TDY advance in one weekend and was unable to pay his lodging bill. I think he bought a painting or something. I didn't keep in touch, but he probably went on to become a platoon leader, etc.

"Of course there are enlisted personnel who come in with requistive life skills and appropriate motivation, and it would seem that these are the ones who show up for multiple reenlistment ceremonies."
I strenuously disagree with the second half of that statement. The ones who show up with skill and motivation soon realize that they'll be wasted in the military, and so they get out as soon as they can. The ones who hang around for multiple reenlistments are the saps who don't realize how unchallenging and useless the military life is and the mediocrities who are still smart enough to realize that they'll do better in the military than they could in real life.

Sensible added detail. Still, would seem that lots of the riff-raff get out when they can, while the NCO ranks seem to be filled with more of the capable, competent, or simply adequate. Makes sense that the truly smart ones either get out, or go SF.

Is mostly right. It's like 2/3 who don't want to deal with a competitive work force and 1/3 who stay out of motivation.

"What would the squad rooms and barracks and PX's be like if there were draftees from all walks of life pushed to work together, support each other, and be accountable over time for their conduct and choices?"

Pretty much the same. Those pawn shops and strip clubs didn't all spring up overnight in 1973. Smart kids like strippers too.

Kids want what they deserve, which they think is whatever they want, damn the consequences. That 19 y/o E3 wants that 2011 Mustang NOW, he deserves it because he's a HERO for spending 6 months pushing paper on a FOB in AFG, and that skinny 18 y/o trailer park girl really, REALLY, LOVES him. If she didn't she wouldn't be texting him XOXOXO every five minutes on their Iphones. Besides, it's a $1000+ raise, no more weekend working parties, and he can shack up at her place.

IMO, it is not a draft vs AVF/socioeconomic status issue so much as it is a change in moral and ethical norms. Do you watch TV? Did you know the Kardashian sisters made over $60M last year for....what? Society rewards what it values, and unfortunately, too much of society thinks what they see on TV is what they want life to be. Pimp My Ride, Sweet 16, Kate Plus 8, Jersey Shore.

Unwed parents are at the highest point ever, wages are stagnant, unemployment high, and there are fewer paths to financial security. That makes a naive Soldier/sailor/Marine a high value target for a trailer park princess. after all, there are only so many spots on the Bachelorette and Teen Mom.

More and more though it seems the 1/3rd (in the Army at least) that's trying to change the NCO corps falls out by SLC (ANCOC).

at WLC (PLDC) They see they're light years ahead of the competition.

at ALC (BNCOC) They see they're hard work puts them at least head and shoulders above the game.

by the time they hit SLC they realize that it doesn't matter anymore, it's all about Tenure. NCO A works his butt off for 10 years and is the living embodiment of the Army Values and sees NCO B, an irresponsible toolbag who can "play the game" and work the system for 10 years. Here they both arrive at the same spot with the "exceeded course standards" on their 1059s. The only difference is NCO B got buddy buddy with all those Master Sergeants CSMs awhile back so guess who's getting the express ticket to USASMA?

Especially in this Economy, it's the ones who know they can sell their work ethics, skills, and leadership in the civilian world that are leaving. The ones staying behind are the ones who either can't take care of themselves because the army's been doing a swell job at it, or the ones that are afraid they can't make it out there where it doesn't matter how many pushups/pullups they can knock out in 2 minutes or how many targets they can down. What matters is how proficient and knowledgeable you are at your job, and can you be depended on.

The Army's new tagline it seems is that it's not promoting on past performance, but on future potential; thus if you suck at your job don't worry you can suck at 20 and 30 level responsibilities at your job all the same.

Wow, your personal attacks against Soldiers that deploy multiple times are sad.

“The ones who show up with skill and motivation soon realize that they'll be wasted in the military, and so they get out as soon as they can.” You derive this based on…

I enjoyed my time commanding enlisted, volunteer Soldiers. While many Soldiers come from lower income pasts, they understood that they could gain a lot from a military enlistment. Do many great Soldiers get out after serving their initial enlistment? Of course. They achieved their goals and they should be proud of their service. DO many great Soldiers stay in? Of course, they enjoy the leadership experiences.

“Makes sense that the truly smart ones either get out…” Truly smart. Definitive claim. What do you define as TRULY smart?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

An ad hominem (Latin: "to the man"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to link the truth of a claim to a negative characteristic or belief of the person advocating it.

Guess you don't need to respond to my query... So, what is TRULY Smart?

I would equate to the knowledge that after spending a few years in the Army, you realize your time is better spent somewhere else.

That's why MI MOSs are rock bottom in retention. The U.S. is one of the very few countries in the world that entrusts the bulk of intelligence collection to Enlisted over Officers (35M, 35L, 35S). After years of bad recruiting by the USAREC, neglection of standards by TRADOC, and wholesale bad retention ploys by HRC, the Army is forced to go outside because it doesn't trust it's own collectors.

I'll drop the whole Proletariat/Bourgeoisie argument about Commanders not listening to valuable intelligence because it's coming from a PFC or SPC collector and just cut to the chase.

Contractors are paid more, receive better training, treated with more professionalism and respect, and contribute more to the intelligence mission in this Army than it's own MI Corps. So why would Soldiers who care about serving their country and/or care about their bank accounts stay in the Army?

This rings true for any critical skill MOS. Psyops, CA, Signal, Legal.

You also don't have to deal issues such as extraneous factors like how many pushups you can do in 2 minutes or how many popup targets can you shoot affect your career. if L3 or CACI hires you do be a JIEDDO analyst, there's only one thing they care about; can you perform your job function to satisfactory levels, not wondering if you can stand at attention in a chair and play jeopardy, reciting some creed.

Otherwise there are plenty of governmental organizations that will gladly take your skills, work ethic, and leadership and pay you slightly better for it. This is all wholly dependent on if you are deemed qualified for the job (which involves a little more than an ASVAB)

Yes,

It might be smart for a high IQ Soldier who is in the intel field to get out and take advantage of the training and experience the Army gave them. Just like it is smart that a young, strong, motivated young man who maybe didn't do so well in school (many possible reasons for this) sees that he could either make $15k to $20k a year as a mall guard or make mid $30k a year and up as an Infantryman. The Soldiers are following the incentives in front of them.

Regardless, though, those Intel Soldiers still buy the cars, date the strippers, and get into debt trouble. The reason, they are 18-22 years old. Jim Tressel will vouch for relying on 18-22 year old to make great life choices.

I've noticed that the guys who stay in for safety typically retire at the 20 year mark as GySgts, 1stSgts, or MSgts. They guys who care stay in to be MGySgts and SgtsMaj. I've also noticed that even the mediocre are generally pretty competent once they're got more than one rocker.

Lots of bright motivated people in the military. Though it seems obvious that maturity and intelligence and cleverness skew as the ranks increase. A significant portion of the motivated, and/or smart, and/or slick enlisted find a way to advance, which is about the same in the rest of the world. The military's an up or out system that dispenses with the immature, the unqualified, and the uncompetetive. I concede that there is variation among units and MOS's, either because of who fills those jobs, or because of attractive civillian opportunities, or because of great leadership that makes military life better.

I would observe that the military seems to value a certain kind of individual (smart or dumb) who will shut and do his/her job or duty no matter how occasionally idiotic or counter-productive. In Iraq, I observed that the happiest O-6's and and O-5's were the ones who showed up at all of their meetings, hit their marks, did exactly what General Officer expected for that day/week/whatever, and did not think or look too closely at what they were asked to do. That O-6 in Afghanistan who got himself fired is a prime example of dissent looking like malcontent and insubordination. Nobody at any level is going to change the course of the supertanker once it gets up to full speed, so make the best of the ride (and linger near the life boats).

I agree with Pen Dragon on this one. There are a lot of worthless trashy troublemakers who have enough sense to realize they can't make it in the real world and therefore reenlist. Of course, I think a majority of those who do reenlist are either decent soldiers or will become good once they mature a little. I got out after four years enlisted because I didn't like wasting my skills and talent on "check the block" crap, nor did I enjoy living around trashy people with their trashy wives in dump towns.

Right? There's crummy troops everywhere. At least none of them took you down with them by their crap decision making.

By the time these poor guys get into the Army, it's usually too late to turn it around. Like me: I didn't need my CO to teach me that credit cards aren't free money. The guys who did stuff like sign high interest loans and max out credit cards didn't understand money because they didn't care to.

Same thing with getting married. I didn't need anyone to tell me that the strippers and barracks rats weren't potential spouses. I didn't have any special insight and I wasn't super smart - the guys who married them just didn't care about their future like I did. I'm not sure that there is anyone to blame for those guys' decisions.

I had a soldier who took the cake on that one. He was basically a decent, simple soul who grew up in a poor, rural town and now was making E-2 pay, which for him was hitting the lottery. Every pay day he would blow his entire pay check that evening, buying the latest ghetto fashion (he was white). Guy didn't know that he had to actually pay off his credit card. Married a fat trashy Army town slut despite the entire platoon's collective pleadings. Naturally, she cheated on him while he was deployed and spent all his money. I had 2 serious man-to-man talks with him, alone, before I finally gave up on him. What am I supposed to do, wipe his ass for him, too?

Should have made a youtube video.

Too bad. No sign or her in Columbus, GA or Radcliff, KY either.

Sure, a lot of American households carry too much debt, but soldier indebtedness is something else altogether. I mean, soldiers blow money on the dumbest things.

...on most of the points.

"I could never get new socks or t-shirts in Iraq, but I could always get a new TV." kinda sums it up, at least for me. Having been part of the AFES system, I saw a lot of this firsthand, and it always seemed to me that the people we simply doing what every body else was doing, and didn't appear to know any better.

Do we need to raise the age to 21? 25? Create an inspector general who'll say things like, "Never mind the television, you can't fight using a television, be grateful you have socks and t-shirts!"
Why can't the purveyors, the unscrupulous vendors near the bases such as were cited in the article simply get a "visit"...or an audit every time they're suspected of fleecing a serviceman or their spouse? Wouldn't it be cheaper in terms of income loss and disrupted lives for the Government to make its presence felt in the communities surrounding the bases? Aren't these the same communities who howl if the base is threatened with closure?

And, hey, let's be frank - we've overthrown nations. What's the ruin or elimination of a few loan sharks, used lemon salesmen, predatory vendors if it improves the quality of life for our men and women in the service?
Seriously.

Check the Uniform Commercial Code and other related state laws and municipal ordinances. Usury is illegal. Other protections exist for consumers but they depend on local and state governments to enforce them.

Problem seems to be when young service members get themselves into hot water despite the guidance/orders from their commands and the existing bodies of civilian law designed to protect them. Can't stop a 20 y.o. E-3 from marrying a 45 y.o. Korean hostess. Can't keep the Private from going home on leave to East B.F., Tennessee and returning newlywed with dependapotamus (got that one from terminallance.com) in tow. Can't stop members from getting revolving credit or variable-rate mortgages. Unfortunately its left to the COC to pick up the pieces, waste valuable leadership and training time and try to maintain good order and discipline in the ranks.

I must admit I liked Gen. Mundy's attempt to ban married recruits and marriages for E-4 and below (or whatever). Say what you will about the old days, but marriage for the enlisted ranks was a lot more difficult. Not to say I never saw a WestPac widow married to a j.o., but that's for another thread.