It might be worth noting that close air support as many on this site know all too well only really works if someone who knows what he is doing is on the ground to call it in. Without some American and/or Brit special op’s types on the ground to coordinate we can assume that the coalition is not using its air assets effectively.

Well JPWREL, Our planners certainly know that although Kadaffi's integrated anti-air defenses have been neutralized, those forces still loyal to him possess non-integrated anti-air assets, such as guns effective against low flying aircraft, as well as SA-6 through SA-13's, and probably some other quickly moveable systems the Europeans were only too glad to sell to the crazy colonel when he was still seen useful.

Additionally, I am also aware Libya has the whole Russian line of shoulder fired anti-air systems which again, are non-integrated systems under miscellaneous loyal Kaddafi forces, who have a varying degree of expertise with them.

The point is, Kaddafi forces still pose a modicum of a threat to friendly aircraft unless we actively hunt and degrade those other weapons that are probably being moved around on a local commanders whim.

However, not to worry, we’re handing this off, so think, Cry Havoc and let slip the Frogs of war!

Guardian claims that NATO is taking over as HQs for this operation and they'll be taking direction from coalition of nations not from the entire North Atlantic Council.

The Italians have to be suffering here. They are too deeply invested in Libya, can't control anything, are STILL likely to end up with a gazillions refugees. This is probably the most fun they have had in Libya since the Battle of Beda Fomm.

As I read it, we basically wargamed this thing four times in the 1980s... and the French and Spanish are being a whole lot more cooperative.

This is an area where my 'been there' experience may be unique among BD readers. I don' thin 'linked' says it Don.

There weren't any women saying 'see, I warned you...' when Zeus reached out, scorching and melting a little metal, in case I missed the point. I made my own luck in choosing the place and time, like many T-poisoned lightning-linked Y-genders- some waving golf clubs or shouldering linemen's sleds under lowering skies.

Re NFZ:
The civilians and warriors lethally engaged in Libya may see it differently, but I think some of the issues being contested over Libyan skies have a lot to do with how our future Pentagon pie gets allocated.

Either you confused me with someone else or that was a brilliant pantomime of someone else. (I'm going with the latter).

Real Women hate golf.

"Well-said."

EH, those days of the 1950’s that you and I fondly remember as children might as well have been in the 16th Century for the relevance they have today. They are long gone and the character and the nature of the nation has evolved into something I don’t quite understand.

Some say there were never any ‘good old days’ but I dissent, for me they were good even if my family didn’t have all the stuff and couldn’t do all the things that others did. We had a neighborhood, made our own fun out of doors and I don’t recall being afraid of anything. Even had a real live hero at that young age in the name of Joe Foss, for me he was the real superman.

Well said and so true.

My boyhood nirvana was the lower middleclass Logan neighborhood of Philadelphia. We few, we happy few who remember still believe it to be the best place anyone ever grew up in.

That era--that life--has relevance as long as we live by the ideals we learned and took to heart. We just need to remind one another of it from time to time, to speak up, to engage and push the wisdom and life experience we've gained.

I said all this about Vietnam, but nobody listened to a skinny kid back then. Now I have a soapbox I built myself, and it's my duty--and singular privelege--to use it to speak out, to address truth to power.

I would suggest that you discuss this with some 60+ year old black Americans.

The US has indeed come a long way since then and a lot of it positive

I discussed it with black guys when we were in fourth grade together (1955), and have been doing so ever since.

The relevance was precisely because, by the late 50s, the Civil Rights movement had taken off and teens in northern cities, raised by WWII vets and weened on the platitudes of patriotism, began to hold the nation accountable for what it had to say for itself. Just as I still do today.

I don't owe you or anyone any kind of justification, but don't be so quick to stereotype. My 19-year-old maternal grandparents fled antiSemitic pogroms in Russia in 1911 and my 17-year-old German-born father barely escaped the Holocaust in 1939. He served as a front-line U.S. Army combat medic on Leyte and Okinawa and was wounded while performing an evacuation under fire. Only after his death did I find the Bronze Star he had been awarded.

I attended city-wide public schools, K through 12, and lived and learned beside every kind of kid living in Philly--rich, poor (like me), Black, White, Asian, Jew, Catholic, Protestant . . . you name it from among America's ethnic and social range of the 1950s and 60s. Then I went to Temple University, another city-wide mixing pot, a bastion of northern urban liberalism serving 58,000 students.

Until I started my first business in 1971, I was often called "kike"--or blatant code for it--to my face in business settings, have been told to my face that "we don't hire your kind," and worse. I move on; I have faith. In my lifetime, I have seen the de jure enfranchisement of nearly all minorities. I hope--even think--I will live long enough to see at least the full legal enfranchisement of all Americans who aspire to live the way Americans claim we want the whole world to live.

If we jump so readily into a war of salvation in Libya, we better be prepared to finish the job of redemption here. That's my easiest demand on my nation, which claims to be pure and perfect.

That's a white 50s kid talking.

Apologies. I mistook "E-6" on RADM Klein's bio for "EA-6B" instead of the B707-based TACAMO aircraft.

That was one thing on top of many that I stated was why they should not be in Ground Combat. Now, I do not recall saying or even going on about "hurt feelings or stress or somesuch to do with it" but hey, never let the truth get in the way of a snarky remark huh? I at least just make snarky comments without the need for making things up ;)

I also pointed out that they have never enforced equal standards and I think I backed it up. As for the PTSD studies, there are so many now that they are not hard to google and there are many theories as to why it is but a lot are genetic related as to why women manifest it more easily and they are looking for ways to help combat it, especially in sex trauma case. As for the other part, if you think we are not hard wired differently then I have to assume you are either in denial or perhaps just embracing this pseudo equality ideal that we are just social constructs that can be switched out at will? I actually posted a lot of the PTSD studies on this blog a bit ago, in response to yet another similar topic of discussion. We are a long way off from push button wars, if you think we are not I have to ask when you were in last? I will tell you what though, when they come out with those nifty exo-skeletons that are in development I will drop my opposition to females in ground combat on physical differences, fair enough?

Now, here is just one study, nothing is absolute yet but it is one study that links it to the gender as one reason. Now, I am going to assume someone like you will try to imply that this was my only point about women not being in ground combat, if you would like I will just cut and paste my long winded post again with the whole studies, past practices, etc..thing, might make it easier for you than going back and looking at it but hey, maybe I am wrong and that won't happen.

Gender Differences in PTSD
Kathleen Brady, MD, PhD

A number of epidemiologic survey studies have shown that posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is twice as common in women as in men; in addition, there are gender differences in the type of trauma exposure, presentation of illness, and comorbidities. Some of these differences are clearly societal and nonbiologically based, but it is also clear that the biologic systems altered in PTSD may modulate or be modulated by sex hormones. Rachael Yehuda, PhD,[1] of the Einstein Medical Center, Bronx, NY, discussed the neuroanatomic, neuroendocrine, and immune-related bases for various gender differences seen in PTSD during this year's Annual Meeting of the American Psychiatric Association.

Neuroendocrine and Neuroanatomic Differences
PTSD is characterized by a number of alterations in stress-related neurotransmitter, neurohormonal, and immune system function. In the biologic model of PTSD, trauma exposure is followed by an unsuccessful neuroendocrine response to trauma. This unsuccessful response is marked by a failure in memory consolidation and symptom restitution. In the normal stress response, a burst of sympathetic nervous system activity constitutes the immediate response. Activation of the hypothalamic/adrenal/pituitary (HPA) axis occurs shortly thereafter. Cortisol is the final mediator of the HPA response, and there is an elevation of cortisol in the normal stress response. In fact, it has been demonstrated that more severe stressors are associated with higher cortisol responses in a "dose-dependent" manner.
In individuals with PTSD, the HPA axis response is dysregulated. Individuals with PTSD have low circulating levels of cortisol. In one study of motor vehicle accident victims, low cortisol levels immediately after the accident were associated with the development of PTSD and high cortisol levels were associated with the development of depression.[2] Studies using the dexamethasone suppression test have demonstrated that this decrease in cortisol in individuals with PTSD is a result of enhanced sensitivity of the glucocorticoid receptors to negative feedback from circulating cortisol at the level of pituitary. Using labeled hydrocortisone injections to measure glucocorticoid receptors by positron emission tomography (PET) scan, Yehuda and colleagues[3] have recently demonstrated an enhanced sensitivity of the glucocorticoid receptors at the hippocampal level in individuals with PTSD as well.

Are these HPA axis parameters affected by the gonadal hormones in individuals with PTSD? A number of animal studies have demonstrated a greater acute response of the HPA axis to stress in females vs that in males.[4] It appears that this increase may be estrogen mediated because ovariectomized females have a stress response which is similar in magnitude to the response of males. There are also changes in the stress response during different phases of the menstrual cycle. The HPA axis stress response during the follicular phase of the cycle is less robust compared with the stress response during the luteal phase. As such, it is important to control for menstrual cycle and menopausal status when studying any gender-specific issues regarding biologic response in PTSD and other disorders.

Dr. Yehuda performed a retrospective analysis of studies concerning biologic changes associated with PTSD. The data indicated that women had lower baseline cortisol levels than men, but PTSD status was not gender related. In other words, women with and without PTSD had lower cortisol as compared to men with and without PTSD. There were some gender differences in the response to the dexamethasone suppression test. There was greater suppression in women than in men, indicating greater dysregulation of the glucocorticoid receptors. In reviewing a number of studies of immune function measures, Dr. Yehuda found no PTSD-specific gender-related differences in cytokine levels.

A number of studies have demonstrated decreases in hippocampal volume in individuals with PTSD. Studies that examined gender differences associated with this finding have demonstrated fairly consistently that hippocampal volume is more decreased in men than in women. In addition, women with PTSD have less memory loss and impairment in cognitive function than their male counterparts.

Dr. Yehuda concluded that there are some PTSD-specific gender differences in the biologic abnormalities seen in individuals with PTSD, but, in general, there are many more similarities than differences. Although there are gender differences in the stress response, many of these differences aren't exaggerated or changed in individuals with PTSD.

Drug Therapy in Women with PTSD
Kathleen Brady, MD, PhD[5] of the Medical University of South Carolina, Charleston, discussed the prevalence of and drug therapy for PTSD in women.

Risks for Developing PTSD Among Men and Women
There are a number of reasons why PTSD may be more common in women than in men. Different types of traumas carry different risks for the development of PTSD. Rape, in both men and women, carries one of the highest risks for producing PTSD. Approximately 0.7% of men in the United States reported being raped as compared with 9.2% of women.[6] In 1996, over 300,000 women in the United States were victims of rape or attempted rape. Other forms of sexual abuse and interpersonal violence are also more commonly associated with PTSD when compared to accidents or natural disasters. Rape is far more common in women than in men. A history of depression or anxiety disorder at the time of trauma is also a risk factor for the development of PTSD. A number of epidemiologic surveys have demonstrated that women with PTSD are twice as likely to have depression and anxiety disorders compared with men with PTSD.[7] As such, much of the increased prevalence of PTSD in women may be mediated by trauma type and comorbidity rather than specific biologic differences per se.

Gender Differences in the Presentation of PTSD
There are also differences between men and women in the presentation of PTSD. Women are more likely to have symptoms of numbing and avoidance and men are more likely to have the associated features of irritability and impulsiveness. Men are more likely to have comorbid substance use disorders and women are more likely to have comorbid mood and anxiety disorders, although many disorders comorbid with PTSD are commonly seen in both men and women.

Gender Differences in Pharmacotherapy
A number of studies have demonstrated the efficacy of the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) in the treatment of PTSD. Specifically, there have been 2 large placebo-controlled double-blind studies published demonstrating the efficacy of sertraline in the treatment of PTSD.[8,9] There is also a double-blind placebo-controlled trial demonstrating the efficacy of 2 doses of paroxetine (20 and 40 mg) in the treatment of PTSD, but this has not yet been published. In a subanalysis of data from the sertraline trial by Brady and colleagues,[8] it was demonstrated that the efficacy of the drug was more robust in decreasing symptoms of PTSD in women than in men. Similarly, in a recently published gender-specific analysis of data from a large comparison trial of sertraline and imipramine for the treatment of chronic depression[10] sertraline was significantly more effective than imipramine in premenopausal women; no differences were found in postmenopausal women or in men. Also of interest was a gender difference in drop out rates. Women in the imipramine group were significantly more likely to drop out than women in the sertraline group. Men in the sertraline group were significantly more likely to drop out than men in the imipramine group. It is not clear what the mediator of these gender differences in treatment response is, but estrogen has been demonstrated to enhance serotonergic neurotransmission by increasing synthesis and receptor sensitivity and decreasing metabolism. One study showed that in postmenopausal women with major depression who had a poor response to SSRI treatment, addition of estrogen replacement therapy improved treatment response in most patients.[11] As such, there may be an estrogen/serotonin connection that is important in determining SSRI response in women.
Psychotherapeutic treatments, particularly cognitive-behavioral therapies, are efficacious in the treatment of PTSD. There are no current studies investigating gender differences in response to psychotherapy. This is likely to be a fruitful area of investigation.

Summary
There are gender differences in the prevalence, comorbidity, presentation, and treatment response in PTSD. Further exploration of these differences and the psychosocial and neurobiologic underpinnings of these differences will be important in improving treatment outcomes for both men and women with PTSD.

References
Yehuda R. Immune neuroanatomic neuroendocrine gender differences in PTSD. Program and abstracts of the 154th Annual Meeting of the American Psychiatric Association; May 5-10, 2001; New Orleans, Louisiana. Symposium 12A.
Goldney RD, Wilson D, Dal Grande E, Fisher LJ, McFarlane AC. Suicidal ideation in a random community sample: attributable risk due to depression and psychosocial and traumatic events. Aust N Z J Psychiatry. 2000;34:98-106.
Yehuda R. Linking the neuroendocrinology of post-traumatic stress disorder with recent neuroanatomic findings. Semin Clin Neuropsychiatry. 1999;4:256-265.
Ogilvie KM, Rivier C. Gender difference in hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis response to alcohol in the rat: activational role of gonadal steroids. Brain Res. 1997;766:19-28.
Brady KT. Pharmacotherapeutic Treatment for Women with PTSD. Program and abstracts of the 154th Annual Meeting of the American Psychiatric Association; May 5-10, 2001; New Orleans, Louisiana. Symposium 12E.
Spitzberg BH. An analysis of empirical estimates of sexual aggression victimization and perpetration. Violence Vict. 1999;14:241-260.
Breslau N, Davis GC, Andreski P, Peterson EL, Schultz LR. Sex differences in posttraumatic stress disorder. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 1997;54(11):1044-1048.
Brady K, Pearlstein T, Asnis GM, et al. Efficacy and safety of sertraline treatment of posttraumatic stress disorder: a randomized controlled trial. JAMA. 2000;283:1837-1844.
Davidson JR, Rothbaum BO, van der Kolk BA, Sikes CR, Farfel GM. Multicenter, double-blind comparison of sertraline and placebo in the treatment of posttraumatic stress disorder. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2001;58:485-492.
Kornstein SG, Schatzberg AF, Thase ME, et al. Gender differences in treatment response to sertraline versus imipramine in chronic depression. Am J Psychiatry. 2000;157:1445-1452.
Kornstein SG, Schatzberg AF, Thase ME, et al. Gender differences in treatment response to sertraline versus imipramine in chronic depression. Am J Psychiatry. 2000 Sep;157(9):1445-1452.

Homework. Cool.

I was being entirely truthful when I said I would be interested in reading the studies and the data. I am also completely open to all sides of the debate. I agree, ES, that we are a long way off from the era of the perfect push-button war. I think I was quite clear, if a bit sarcastic, when I wrote that if the women can meet the high standards (I doubt they can meet the physical criteria alone) set for BUD/S inter alia then on the physical side of the argument, why not let them try? That leaves the hormonal, neural, cultural and emotional criteria that must be met by all to be successful grunts, tankers, cannon-cockers, mine-finders and special operators.

My other main point, and I apologize if I wasn't quite clear when I tried to make it, is that flag officers - male, female, black, brown, green, Army, AF, Navy, whatever - nowadays aren't quite required to meet the standards of SOI or anything close, physically speaking and never get shot at or are required to grab a rifle and charge a hill. I do however hope that whoever is in charge at that level has the proper leadership and other sundry skills I listed in order to carry out the mission successfully.

I will read tonight when I get home and see what the data says.

"I was being entirely truthful when I said I would be interested in reading the studies and the data. I am also completely open to all sides of the debate. I agree, ES, that we are a long way off from the era of the perfect push-button war. I think I was quite clear, if a bit sarcastic, when I wrote that if the women can meet the high standards (I doubt they can meet the physical criteria alone) set for BUD/S inter alia then on the physical side of the argument, why not let them try?"

I am sure you are open to debate if you think that equal standards will be applied then you are not being realistic. Never seen it, since women have come in they have not been instituted but now they will be instituted by a miracle? BUD/S has already been cut down by 5 weeks to get more guys in for just numbers, think they would not do the same to reach a "goal" of females? Hmm....I think that old SOF truth about quality vs quanity would go right out the window in favor of politics.

"That leaves the hormonal, neural, cultural and emotional criteria that must be met by all to be successful grunts, tankers, cannon-cockers, mine-finders and special operators."-

Men and women are not social constructs and that is what this argument relies on, sorry, been in for to long, have done wayyyy to many "Joint" things and know better. Also, good old scienece is rearing it's ugly non-PC head and slowly backing me up via brain studies, reaction studies, etc...oh, and common sense and evolution would tell us that men and women are different at a fundamental level.

"My other main point, and I apologize if I wasn't quite clear when I tried to make it, is that flag officers - male, female, black, brown, green, Army, AF, Navy, whatever - nowadays aren't quite required to meet the standards of SOI or anything close, physically speaking and never get shot at or are required to grab a rifle and charge a hill. I do however hope that whoever is in charge at that level has the proper leadership and other sundry skills I listed in order to carry out the mission successfully."

Actually, my main point was that most of our Officers at that level are there due to politics and if you do enough homework you can look up the goals I often talk about, also how they got there and if they had to meet the same standards on the way up matters as well. As you were saying in another post about the Navy having "lost confidence in his/her ability to command.", well we know the deal too and we tend to lose confidence in a leader who is in a rigged game. I also think it hurts those who are qualified, people will automatically think they were there due to a quota. If a female it through BUD/S, SFAS, RIP or any other selection I would wave a giant BS flag.

"I will read tonight when I get home and see what the data says."

Enjoy, there are a lot more out there and other theories but this is just one point of my argument against women in ground combat, well that and not wanting to die for the sake of PC.

I keep thinking stuff as I write it and think it is on there and yet it is not! Gotta stop the wine or maybe the ADHD, either way, the basics are there! ;)

Dire

I think it depends on your objective. What was the objective again?

If the objective is to fly and around and drop some bombs, do some "stuff" then we can probably achieve that w/o unity of command.

If you remember back to Iraq: 5 days into the operation everyone was jumping up and down slapping each other on the back because it was going so wonderfully. 5 weeks into the operation they still were ecstatic, at 5 mos the lights were starting to come on (even though it took longer than that for the insurgency to really get going), and by 5 years it was obvious that we had a few problems, maybe including unity of command.