Tuesday, March 15, 2011 - 11:12 AM

When it comes to Libya, I have been struck by the vehemence of views on both sides of the discussion in Washington. When Americans are so confused, it can't hurt to help someone from the region what they think. So I asked my friend Yasser El-Shimy, a former Egyptian diplomat now teaching in the United States, for his opinion. See if you can guess what he advocates:
By Yasser El-Shimy
Best Defense Maghreb bureau
Despite what American generals and defense officials have been telling us, Libya is not Lebanon (1982), Somalia (1992) or even Iraq (2003). The common concern voiced against U.S. participation in imposing a no-fly zone over Libya is the fear of "mission creep." The concern is legitimate, but it does betray a lack of understanding of the situation in Libya. Unlike previous American military interventions, the local population in this case is quite willing to carry out the hard task of ground confrontations. Washington could help oust one of the most repressive autocratic regimes in the world without sending a single soldier to the battlefield. The Libyan rebels in Benghazi, Tobruk, Misrata and other liberated cities are ready and willing to fight Qaddafi's forces, when they are supplied with weapons that can match Qaddafi's. What is more, given the personality cult that is Qaddafi's regime, if an airstrike could target him (and his inner circle), the regime would collapse before the dust has even settled.
Another common objection raised against intervention is the potential terrorist ties some of the rebels might have. Whilst we have no method of ascertaining every rebel's affiliation at this point, we know that a lingering civil conflict in Libya (certain to happen if Qaddafi clings to power) would create ample ground for radicalization and extremist recruitment. Al Qaeda in Maghreb (AQM) would surely exploit the deep resentment and grievances among the revenge-seeking population. Leading an international mission to save civilian lives, and help moderate figures come to power may well help prevent this scenario from taking place. Under no circumstances, however, should U.S. or international troops have a mission on the ground, as this may turn Libyan society on itself, and may become a quagmire akin to Afghanistan's.
The world needs to understand what is at stake in Libya. First, although hundreds, if not thousands, of civilians have perished at the hands of Qaddafi's brigades and mercenaries so far, these numbers would pale in comparison with the expected massacres, should Qaddafi be allowed to prevail. The Tripoli-trenched dictator would exact ruthless retribution against Eastern Libyans for what he views as their treason. Qaddafi has already promised to "cleanse Libya house by house." If the world decided to stand by while the unfair fight rages on now, they must be prepared to witness acts amounting to genocide on the sidelines later. An intervention then would be far more costly than it would be now, and unlikely to succeed.
Second, the revolutionaries are unlikely to disappear, if Qaddafi retakes liberated Libyan cities. They will wage a protracted guerrilla urban warfare against his troops. This type of conflict usually induces radicalization and chaos. In other words, Libya might turn into a giant Somalia: a failed state on Egypt's borders with radical groups taking advantage of the mayhem. Finally, Libya's oil production (13th largest in the world) would not recover quickly from the conflict, and world governments would be hard-pressed to hand Qaddafi billions of dollars in payments for oil. The prolonged disruption in Libya's oil production is likely to keep prices elevated, thus threatening the fragile recovery of the world economy.
So what is the plan? The plan should be divided into steps that must be immediately taken, and others which should be escalatory if Qaddafi's intransigence persists. The immediate steps should include a no-fly zone, and an unequivocal recognition of the Libyan National Council as the only legitimate representative of its people, reducing Qaddafi into a warlord. They should also include heavily arming the National Council and its forces, providing them with real-time intelligence on Qaddafi's attacks, and jamming state television and radio broadcasting. Meanwhile, an UN-backed "coalition" that should include an Arab neighbor, such as Egypt, ought to declare a series of escalatory punishments against Qaddafi and his cronies, as long as they refuse to yield power. A series of two-day deadlines would start off by giving Qaddafi a 3 day amnesty offer, or face a naval blockade. After that, for every 48 hours he stays in power, he should face first an aerial bombardment of his weapons' depots, then aerial bombardment of his brigades, then bombardment of his headquarters. The ultimate punishment should be his (and his sons') assassination. In fact, this final step alone, if taken immediately, would end the bloodshed in very little time; mercenaries do not fight, if their paymasters are dead.
Winning in Libya is neither impossible, nor costly. It requires resolve and determination to convey the message to those fighting for the vicious colonel that the game is over. Once Qaddafi's circle realizes that he and they are becoming walking targets, they are likely to start switching sides. If they don't, taking out the Qaddafi family would immediately bring about the end of the highly-personalized regime. This plan involves zero soldiers on the ground, and would be passionately welcomed by Arab citizens everywhere, especially if it has Egyptian participation or Arab-backing. Short of demonstrating this kind of resolve, the world should take a seat, turn on Al Jazeera and watch Libyans get killed en masse.
PATRICK BAZ/AFP/Getty Images
On first reading, this was really inspirational stuff. I mean, what American doesn't want to be at the head of a alliance of nations, all committed to freedom and democracy, racing ahead to beat the powers of tyranny...?
But then I remembered: we won't have any allies in this fight. Who here seriously thinks the Egyptians, let alone any of the other Mid-Eastern powers, are going to scramble the tanks and jets alongside us? $1.3 BILLION in aid to Egypt annually, and according to Reuters anyhow, have 240 F-16's. Can't they enforce their own no-fly zone, or are they simply too incompetent? Neither is a good prediction for any aid to the Libyan rebels.
And after the operations, how likely do you think it is that civilian deaths and so forth are going to leave a lasting positive image? Without any kind of a historical interaction, I fear any further interaction in the Middle East will just be fighting a tar-baby.
Given the Arab League's endorsement, I actually think that any no-fly force would have an Arab component--Saudis, Egyptians, maybe some Gulf states, maybe even also Morocco. I think the Saudis not only have fighters but also an AWACs.
But doing a no-fly zone is actually tougher than it sounds. It is not just a matter of shooting down anything that flies. You have to have rules of engagement. You need deconfliction. You also have to worry about being spoofed--what happens when an attack helicopter has a helicopter load of orphans next to it? What do you do when a SAM is fired from the courtyard of a mosque?
Best,
Tom
PS--If I were the Israelis I'd be a little worried about NATO teaching Arab air forces how to operate in a tight, integrated fashion.
Tom,
Arab League endorsement is great (and I wasn't aware of it). But do you think we'll see the Egyptians or the League take the initiative, and then request US assistance? I'm extremely doubtful of that. I'm thinking that (once again) any action would be US-led, -bled, and -blamed. Your point about the collateral damage I think reinforces this.
A modest proposal- use Egyptian,Saudi & Jordanian air assets supported by US airborne 3ci and supply antiarmor weapons out of theMRF warehouses-why? They fly US aircraft,trained with USAF and Nato airforces and its an Arab fight that should be led by Arab forces both military and political. Its your homeground, you know it best- we can provide 3CI and logistics-but if your not willing to fight I'm not asking my son to stick his neck out (again). Saddat was willing to risk and lose his son- where's yours?
Iraq/Afghan Albatross Around Neck
This is a big surprise the Egyptians want us to fight their wars for them. There is a LOT of that going around. That is ALMOST as good as US National Interests.
Why are we assuming a no fly zone will be adequate to create an ndstate?
An Arab component to act in Arab interests does not impress. We're not looking for another "Coalition of the Billing" in fact we're not looking for any more wars period. To act like the ongong wars do not ecumber the US options is simply ridiculous.
The Saudis going into Bahrain is probably more important than the Egyptians really, Really, REALLY, wanting us to smite their enemies hip and thigh.
Not quite convinced, but I could be a player
Make no mistake about it, I find the repression and/or killing of any people of any culture at the hands of any dictator or regime to be distasteful; in spades with Qaddafi considering he has previous American blood on his hands. How could I not, with my own late Mother having been ordered against her will, to attend a U.S. federal mandated boarding school for American Indians as a young girl.
However, El-Shimy must first tell me what sets a precedent in Libya today, that we didn’t see in southern Sudan yesterday? I would certainly never accuse him of drawing a line in the sand because Libyan Arabs have lighter skin as opposed to the darker infidels of the sub-Sahara, and further south.
So, there must me some other reason?
Before I continue, let’s be clear about the fact that Libya is a recognized member of the U.N. and is a sovereign country. A country we saw fit to establish diplomatic relations with under the previous administration, if for no other reason then to get Occidental and Exxon back in. Therefore, talk of targeting Qaddafi and his inner circle for elimination would be an international act of assassination, and is a non-starter, and needs to be dismissed immediately. The ramifications in the region would be catastrophic.
Yasser El-Shimy urges heavily arming the National Council and its forces, and providing them actionable intelligence against Qaddafi, but simultaneously says under no circumstances should the U.S. or international troops have a mission on the ground?
Well, someone from America will have to be on the ground? Are you advocating the CIA working with a contracted third country such as Egypt, because regardless, an American para-military footprint is the same as a uniformed military footprint in the end.
I will agree with the El-Shimy that whether Qaddafi takes back all lost territory or not, there very well might be a protracted guerrilla campaign against his regime, that could induce radicalization, and possibly chaos (it is possible to contain such, as India does in certain regions), and draw-in neighboring Egypt.
I believe strongly that this is a regional issue that must be solved by the Arab League taking the lead, both politically and militarily if necessary. But I’ve been known to be a player for both right and wrong causes, if someone can convince me with an articulate risk analysis that the return is worth the risk. . .and Yasser, you haven’t completely sold me!
In the meantime, I will monitor the situation, just as I am the Saudis who have sent elements of their SANG over the causeway into Bahrain. Of course, those fomenting hate and discontent over there, are those folks committed heresy, the Shi’a, and that's probably ok?
As a unifying exercise, Egyptians of all political persuasions could help free their Libyan brothers. It could be their unifying moment, their Gettysburg! Indeed, the Egyptian army could go along way to silencing naysayers who have hitherto characterized them as thugs dependent on the US dole, excelling in intimidating small businessmen and crudely enforcing monopolies.
Respected European statesmen such as Sarkozy and Berlusconi could, in partnership with the Arab League, ever a force for human rights, take a lead role in liberating the Libyan people. Currently, Peninsular and Gulf Arab forces are involved in stability enhancement operations in Bahrain, but that will be over soon, hopefully. In the future, however, largess on the part of wealthier Peninsular and Gulf Arabs for their poorer neighbors might be in order. We would reasonably expect that any such aid be accompanied by Wahhabi (ever our constant allies against terrorism) influenced social and educational programs. Erdogan, so far demurring on intervention, must be convinced that Turkey as a regional power has a responsibility to protect the rebels. No, not the rebels, the legitimate Libyan government!
Behind closed doors, of course, the US could tell that pontificating poseur Sarkozy and that old sleazebucket Belusconi that if they don't do anything, expect a horde of Libyans on their doorstep in the next few months. Who knows what those folks' political persuasion and ideas about civic activism might be?
Regarding European presence in Afghanistan, which is part of this Libyan deal, perhaps, if we actually had leadership in this country, the behind the doors message would be "last one out is a rotten egg."
is pushing this no fly zone thing pretty hard. Really have to wonder why, especially as there is still no compelling reason given for getting involved in the first place.
What's behind this hard sell Tom?
No hidden motives. I've tried to explain my thinking, but apparently have failed.
When I asked Yasser to write a guest column, I had no idea what he was going to say. I just wanted to know what an informed, sophisticated Egyptian who has a feel for regional politics, and is on the side of freedom, thought.
Best,
Tom
What's behind this hard sell Tom?
Good question. Government Information Operators and propaganda peddlers always keep their agenda hidden. I suspect that several CNAS sponsers have some weapons they would like to test on live targets, especially Libyan planes. Our current war zones have no planes. There is real money and serious profits to be had by our host's pals. War is a racket!
Despite some valid input from the pro-action side, if we choose to engage in military action on behalf of either side or any number of regional players, we will have learned nothing from history. It's foolhardy to think that everlasting gratitude would truly be in the cards - or that it justifies (yet another) military endeavor on a sovereign nation.
With all due respect to Mr. El-Shimy, but wasn't there another seemingly sincere and knowledgeable guy (i.e. Chalabi) just a decade ago that uttered similar predictions in regards to the dynamics in his native country as well ? How did that pan out ?
Have humanitarian and logistic aid on the ready as soon as the dust settles. If Libya unleashes whatever retaliatory or provocative action against us, respond without a moment's hesitation. Otherwise, please check those guns at the door.
Cheers
Did I read this right? Did this diplomat actually call for assassination-by-airstrike?
This is the worst sort of Northeast/Beltway interventionist argument. The only things missing were exhortations regarding American "credibility" and a reminder that Qaddafi = Hitler.
It will be cheap, he says. Painless, he says. It will be "passionately welcomed by Arab citizens everywhere." If we don't act, Goldstein (AQM) will be advantaged, somehow. And, as always, "The World" will be somehow morally complicit if more Libyans are killed by other Libyans.
I have heard all of this before, and it strikes me as cheap, sentimental and unserious.
I remain convinced that anything is "at stake" for the American people in Libya.
That's pretty far outside the Beltway.
Best,
Tom
And Chalabi, once upon a time, was from Baghdad
And like Chalabi, this Egyptian seems clearly to know his audience.
that anything is at stake for Americans in Libya
Drop a bunker buster on his house. Could even use a drone to do it. The benefits of this are massive, especially if you factor in the counterfactuals, as El-Shimy has done.
I was under the impression that assassination was illegal under US law (or at least by Presidential Executive Order). Is this not the case during times of war?
It very much is illegal. Does it matter? Not a lick.
Perhaps it is because this man is in the spotlight daily now, but regardless I find it amusing that when the specter of assassination is brought up people cite law, sovereignty, and international convention in a heart beat. Qaddafi is one man. A very rich man? Yes. A very powerful man? Yes. But he is one man, and he is not above the law. I do not see how anybody in good conscious can advocate treating one man with dignity and respect when he is actively engaged in the slaughter of thousands of his people. Are these individuals' lives not of equal worth? Why does America so easily break her own and international laws when it seems fitting, yet will not raise a finger (literally, in the case of a drone) to perform an act that may be illegal, but, in every other way, just?
Foreign policy analysts here need to get their heads on straight. We are on the tipping point of a crisis and history will judge harshly if the good and just is forsaken in the name of.. what? 'Article B-2 says we can't?
Wow there's a great conversation over in the My Lai thread
.....right up your alley. Go on over, the water is fine, but getting hotter.
Who needs rules, laws, constitutions. Fuck em.
Well TORO, ya gotta think long term, know what I'm saying here dog?
Historically, we generally don't do the deed ourselves, but work in the background through either those we see will further our interests more efficiently such as replacing Salvador Allende with General Pinochet more recently, or a bit further back, giving a nod to the S. Vietnamese generals to take Ngo Diem, along with his skinny brother for company, on a drive into the countryside.
The problem is: what came after was terrible! But hey, if you can tell me what will replace the crazy colonel afterwards, and whether-or-not they'll be pro-American, or won't turn on us over the Israeli-Palestinian issue. . .or. . .feeling like the Muammar (which means long-living) sold the block bids to Occidental and Exxon too cheaply, pocketing the vig from the top, and want to renogotiate really, really badly, I'll go along with you.
However, remember what I said about using others for our dirty work? When we try it ourselves, we generally screw it up. The last time, we killed the old man's infant daughter.
How about the day after tomorrow?
Tom,
El-Shimy writes, "Second, the revolutionaries are unlikely to disappear, if Qaddafi retakes liberated Libyan cities. They will wage a protracted guerrilla urban warfare against his troops. This type of conflict usually induces radicalization and chaos. In other words, Libya might turn into a giant Somalia: a failed state on Egypt's borders with radical groups taking advantage of the mayhem." But how is the reverse not also true? Gaddafi has been in power for 40 years, has had significant resources to spread around, and clearly has a certain percentage of the population loyal to him. There has been a ton of talk, and much of it repeated by myself, of mercenaries at work in Libya, but I would doubt that all, or even a majority, of Gaddafi forces are merely paid arms. Are they going to just disappear if Gaddafi leaves or is killed? I highly doubt it.
Is the goal of intervention to prevent the loss of life or is it regime change? What's to ensure that the rebels don't do to Gaddafi loyalists exactly what Gaddafi would do if he won? Abdul Fatah Younis seems to be the man of the hour, but up until late February he was debatably the No. 2 in command behind the Colonel and Interior Minister. It seems hard to imagine that a guy like that had no blood on his hands in the 40 years of Gaddafi power. Why is he, or anyone else, going to be any better than Gaddafi? Maybe not worse, but any guarantee of them being better?
There's going to be a lot of people with a lot of grievances dating from even before the Abu Slim massacre and only compounded by the recent fighting. Who is going to stop them from acting out in revenge of their real or perceived injustices in a post-Gaddafi Libya?
What I remember the most of the early days of Iraq was the looting of the Mesopotamian antiquities. I say that not to minimized the awful loss of life in our invasion of Iraq, but as a reminder that war waging is the "easy" part--it's the planning and execution of what comes next that is so tricky. Where are the experts talking about that?
Evan
http://highchairanalyst.blogspot.com/
What makes us sure that No Fly gets rid of COL and produces even a minimally acceptable endstate?
Sure bombing the piss out of his most reliable troops, while we're initiating No Fly gets rid of COL for sure, anything less not so sure. The Mid-East has arms coming out of every orifice, the idea that Egyptians or Arab League have to come to us for arms is ridiculous.
Purpose of this No Fly is just to get the Camels' Head under the edge of the Tent. All that "nobody on the ground" will be completely forgotten when everybody is wild in the streets. That will be the Humanitarian Disaster that we are responsible for, Once More Into the Breach Dear Friends!.
Ricks' & El-Shimy's Greatest Misses...
Check out the hook while the DeeJay revolves it--
El-Shimy: "What is more, given the personality cult that is Qaddafi's regime, if an airstrike could target him (and his inner circle), the regime would collapse before the dust has even settled."
So all's we gotta do is pinpoint Qaddafi to an 8-digit grid and hit it with a JDAM before he sidesteps away from the bull's-eye. Well, THAT ought to be easy. We've been such a flaming success at finding guys at the top of the pyramid. Only took us a year to find Saddam in a hole in his hometown. Clock's still running on Bin Laden. What did John Stewart call him? A six-foot tall Arab on dialysis?
El-Shimy: "Winning in Libya is neither impossible, nor costly. It requires resolve and determination to convey the message to those fighting for the vicious colonel that the game is over."
Did this guy write speeches for Dubya? "Determination and resolve?" And what happens when we're in month six of this thing? Resort to the "turning the corner" schtick?
Ricks: "But doing a no-fly zone is actually tougher than it sounds. It is not just a matter of shooting down anything that flies. You have to have rules of engagement. You need deconfliction. You also have to worry about being spoofed--what happens when an attack helicopter has a helicopter load of orphans next to it? What do you do when a SAM is fired from the courtyard of a mosque?"
Those are great questions. I got another one-- who's answering them? Us or the Arab coalition commanders? 240 jets is a lot of airpower. Do the Americans get to call the shots by virtue of one aircraft carrier? How much stickier does the situation get when an American controller clears a Saudi pilot to zap a relief flight carrying Libyan kids?
Also, by "it's a lot tougher than it sounds," do you mean to say that El-Shimy is painting this situation with nothing but tones of rose coloring?
El-Shimy: "The world needs to understand what is at stake in Libya. First, although hundreds, if not thousands, of civilians have perished at the hands of Qaddafi's brigades and mercenaries so far, these numbers would pale in comparison with the expected massacres, should Qaddafi be allowed to prevail."
I'd be slightly more sympathetic if we started the discussion by explaining the cost of American ambivalence about the situations in Sudan, Rwanda or Burma. But if we did that, we'd have a pretty clear explanation of why we don't get involved in more situations like this-- because they really really really don't impact us. El-Shimy says we shouldn't compare Libya to places we've invaded only to run aground. I'm not doing that. I'm comparing it to places we never invaded and didn't experience subsequent problems from.
Libya's been going on for a solid two weeks and the Saudis went to Bahrain. What's wrong with this strategic picture? Meanwhile, no one's been eager to whack Qaddafi for the last twenty years, and he was killing people left and right all along. Let's not anyone try to get up on the high horse about it now, because it just looks stupid.
We haven't helped Libya yet, and no Americans have gotten hurt. That's a heck of a streak. I say we let it continue.
As far as I can tell, all the salient factors pertaining to Libya pertain to Burma. Why aren't we discussing Burma with as much verve?
Oh. Oil.
All the rest is self-serving, testosterone-driven bullshit.
There's nothing more pressing for the U.S. going on in Libya than the ethnic cleansing we traditionally ignore in southwestern Ruritania.
Indeed why not Burma - err Myanmar
The green rice season in Burma is when farmers are short of money, and is the prime season for young girl hunting in the rural hill tribes, but we need to hurry.
Besides there's jade for us "to seek out gems and some little stones, we strike pits deep within the ground. Thus we pluck the very heart-strings out of her and all to wear on our finger, one gem or precious stone, to fulfill our pleasure and desire." - C. Plinius Secundus
Oh, I'm sorry, I lost my head, you were being sarcastic? For a moment I thought this was a serious discussion of plundering Burma, using Libya as a rehearsal. . .nothing tastier than roasted peacock on a stick, and Burma's got oil too. We could kill two birds at once, so to speak.
No matter how you say it, it is still the US being baited...
"The immediate steps should include a no-fly zone, and an unequivocal recognition of the Libyan National Council as the only legitimate representative of its people, reducing Qaddafi into a warlord. They should also include heavily arming the National Council and its forces, providing them with real-time intelligence on Qaddafi's attacks, and jamming state television and radio broadcasting. Meanwhile, an UN-backed "coalition" that should include an Arab neighbor, such as Egypt, ought to declare a series of escalatory punishments against Qaddafi and his cronies, as long as they refuse to yield power"
1. A no-fly zone, whether or not UN sanctioned, would still be an act of war; I still do not see Russia or China allowing such a vote.
2. Who says the Libyan National Council represents the majority of Libyans, and who is going to reognize them? Have any Arab states done so yet?
3. Arming insurgents, providing intelligence and jamming state communications are all acts of war, and I don't see anyone calling them anything else.
4. "...an UN backed coalition that shoud include an Arab neighbor" - is Egypt or Tunisia, or Algeria ready to initiate "escalatory punishments" against Col Qaddafi?
The simple fact - and it is betrayed throughout Mr. el-Shimy's article - is that without the US, there will be nothing done to depose Col Qaddafi. No other nation or group of nations is going to take any action without the US commitment. Mission creep is more than a legitimate concern, it will be almost a certainty if the US gets involved. Whether we put boots on the ground or not, our involvement will be portrayed by certain elements as nothing more than another act of aggression by the superpower against an Arab government.
I will commend Mr el Shimy for saying something that most other commentators step around - he at least is honest in referring to Afghanistan as a quagmire. That's something our President, Secretary of State and Defense chiefs are unwilling to admit.
I think it is fine to get into the speculative details of "what might happen" militarily, and it is also fine to get into the speculative dreams of "what might happen to us" politically. But, you know what, it is, in the end, only speculative.
What is going to come out of this, in my mind, in the big picture, is how utterly hamstrung and ineffective the United States has become.
We can no longer do ANYTHING independent of Europe, the Middle East, or anywhere else. We are the meaning of the word "Tarbaby".
Caught, unable to move. Tied up in so so many ways that it boggles the imagination of those with any conscience.
So, here we are. Witnessing, and encouraging, the despot in his efforts to murder his own citizens and we say things like, well, it just isn't in our own national interest to prevent this. Who cares about these people? Not us. Not the United States. Not Israel. Not Saudi Arabia. Not any Middle Eastern country who wishes to preserve their own powers. And, wishes to put an end to these "rebellions" by those who seek their simple, human rights.
Of course, one must realize that the term "national interests" does NOT include the notion of human rights.
It means money. Oil. Natural resourses. And, it means maintaining the status quo of every current leader in whatever country who can provide us with their natural resources.
Which, to my mind, is just exactly why we will all be sitting by. watching on televsion, as Gaddafi is permitted to massacre his own people, and then, shoving it down our faces as he replays the Roman demonstration of just what happens if you should defy him: miles upon miles of hanging crucified "rebels".
To eliminate the concept, and reality, of "conscience", to give it up to "national interests" (which without conscience only means money and personal power) is to underestimate the power of all the young, idealistic, and striving citizens of the countries we currently betray.
Our true national interest resides in encouraging freedom, whatever the cost.
Mind if I borrow your "true national interest" for a minute? I'm going to tie it to one end of this here yellow ribbon I got.
I could be wrong, though. Please, tell me I'm wrong. Tell me you're posting this from Kenya, where you're working with the Peace Corps to dig a well and vaccinate a village. Or maybe you're posting from Afghanistan where you're working with USAID to build girls' schools. Or you're typing on your smartphone during your break from your church's habitat for humanity project in Guatemala? Tell me you're a Marine or an Airman. Heck, I'll accept a Mormon mission to Canada in 1983 as qualification.
Tell me you didn't just spew a bunch of idealistic bee-ess from a climate controlled office building or posted that using the free Wi-Fi at a Starbuck's. Tell me you've spent serious time trying to make the kind of difference in the third world that you're proposing. Tell me you don't owe me a plane ticket to New Zealand.
Thank you for being an adult.
O.K., Mr. Gourley, with all due respect for everything I have ever read that you have written, and enjoyed, which I have many times:
You are Right! Except, it wasn't Kenya, it was Ghana. It wasn't digging a well or vaccinating a village. It was "teaching". Letters, numbers, language, etc.
Nor was it in Afghanistan building girls' schools. It was in Afghanistan digging out Karezes in Helmand.
Nor has it been in a Starbucks plunking out thoughts about how we all can sing Kumbaya in a controlled office building. As far a Marines or Airmans or Mormons go, I haven't lived long enough yet to become one, or each, or all of them.
I am not going to buy you a ticket to New Zealand. You don't need one. And, please, don't assume that any of my comments about the importance about morality or "conscience" suggests an inability to recognize the need for a distanced, practical, implementation of force or the wisdom to refuse it.
I have enjoyed and appreciated and benefited from your many comments on this blog for a long time. It is fun for me to finally be able to respond, regardless of the consequences, as they say.
My best to you.
So Long As You've Walked The Walk...
I'm cool with it. You've obviously gone downrange and come back with your idealism intact. I'd say it's admirable, but I think it's more a matter of luck than resolve. Either way, I view your comments as significantly more credible now.
My only question to you now is this-- just how much should we act independently from Europe in the interest of worldwide freedom and justice? Look again at those other countries I mentioned and how much it's cost us for the two we've tried to help. You've seen Afghanistan with your own two eyes. I think you'd have to agree that the outcomes there are only marginally positive... at best.
And I wonder how you weigh your conscience with our inaction in Libya with how it will feel over the death of a single military member as a result of the action you so adamantly want to see us execute.
But for going out there and giving time in Ghana and Afghanistan, myself and the other falafel stand commanders of the world give you a hearty Kiwi salute. Good on ya, mate.
Cheap? Easy? No U.S. soldiers on the ground?
We can remove a dictator hostile to the U.S. and NATO interests by sacrificing nothing more than a few F-16 sorties? Sign me up!
I'm sure it'll go just as splendidly as the last time that we were sold the idea of military intervention in a Muslim country being cheap, easy and at little cost to us.
I recently attended a lecture with former Col, Dr Andrew Bacevich. He had quite a bit to say about the crises in the middle east, although his speech was supposed to be about Israel/Palestine.
To badly paraphrase a really well put together speech:
It's the duty and responsibility of every government to protect and further the national interests of their citizens. Obviously the specific definition of 'national interests' is arguable in every foreign policy situation, but the basic premise can be applied to Libya.
I think Americans would generally like to think of themselves (myself included) as moral people. We'd like to look at history and think we've always done the right thing, stuck up for the right people, but the truth is we haven't. The truth is that our national interest, at least the interpretation of our national interest for the past 50+ years of US governments, is stability.
Democracy and self determination of millions of Arabs is what we collectively sacrifice in the name of short term stability(looking the other way with our old buddy Hosni and so many others). Now mind you, I'm not making a value judgment here, just observing.
If we were to do what on the surface seems "morally right", and intervene in Libya on behalf of the rebels, we'd be giving up short term stability for the HOPE of a better future. That's not the American way. The equation has changed a bit now because events are currently in motion, but the basic premise is the same. The cold reality is that morality doesn't have much of a role in foreign policy decisions. If it's better for us economically to intervene, then we will. Since it's not, then we'll demand that there's a consensus from the African Union, the Arab League, the security council, and the hard to measure voice of the Libyan people.
Having said all that let me say this. I'm now out of the army, having spent a majority of my time in air and missile defense. Simply put, imposing a NFZ and not performing SEAD operations is impossible. If these jingoistic ignorant hawks have their way baiting us into another engagement, make no mistake about it, we will be bombing the hell out of Libya. And as a corollary to that, not that we've cared before, but how will we look bombing Libya while we let the Saudis occupy another country, one where we have a major naval fleet posted. Add to that the inevitable civilian casualties, possible medevacs of downed pilots, and the unknowable unknowns(FU very much Rummy), and we're just continuing down the rabbit hole we started falling into a decade ago.
No No Fly Zone. No moral decision making, lest we use that across the board and invade the dozens of other countries treating their people terribly. We've fought so long overseas, we've forgotten how to take care of ourselves. It's time to take a deep breath and worry about our bridges collapsing and our people not having jobs(besides the jobs provided for by our military aid to other countries which is returned immediately to lockeed, raytheon, and boeing). Hate to be a downer, but I'm very disappointed that our leadership doesn't have the courage to change its ways, if not surprised.
I'm just curious because I don't really see where the hostility is coming from Mr Bacon, but why would the UN charter spontaneously start applying to these situations when it really hasn't before? Of course people worked very hard to create the UN and the idea of it is wonderful, but in a practical sense, I don't understand the argument.
I mean, I think I agree with you, if I understand what you're saying. Of course it's terrible that we don't live up to the agreements that we've made. We signed on to the UN, made commitments, and have ignored those commitments time and again. Yes, it's pitiful, and I wish that our country took many different paths from the ones we have taken. And let me just repeat a sentence from my last post that you may have overlooked, "I'm not making a value judgment here, just observing." I clearly didn't mean to imply that US foreign policy was correct or just or righteous.
**worth mentioning, the Bacevich shoutout was only pertaining to the first couple paragraphs, the rest of it was my own chaotic thoughts.
Supposed they Gave a War and Nobody Came?
The king of Zor, he called for war
And the king of Zam, he answered.
They fashioned their weapons one upon one
Ton upon ton, they called for war at the rise of the sun.
Out went the call to one and to all
That echoed and rolled like the thunder.
Trumpets and drums, roar upon roar
More upon more.
Rolling the call of "Come now to war."
Throughout the night they fashioned their might
With right on the side of the mighty.
They puzzled their minds plan upon plan
Man upon man
And at dying of dawn the great war began.
They met on the battlefield banner in hand.
They looked out across the vacant land.
And they counted the missing, one upon one,
None upon none.
The war it was over before it begun.
Two little kings playing a game.
They gave a war and nobody came.
And nobody came.
And nobody came.
And nobody came.
And nobody came.
Bill Chadwick & John Chadwick
What is the moral argument against that?
The 17 Percenters are destroyong America
(1) One finding from the new Washington Post/ABC News poll has received some attention: Americans -- by the large margin of 31-64% -- believe that "all in all, considering the costs to the United States versus the benefits to the United States, the war in Afghanistan has not been worth fighting." And they believe by an even wider margin -- 71-23% -- that the "United States should withdraw a substantial number of U.S. combat forces from Afghanistan this summer" (though 53% doubt, probably presciently, that this will happen). But what's even more striking is that a mere 17% of the American citizenry "strongly believes" that the war was worth fighting (see this very good analysis of how dubious is the administration's new positive war spin).
Glenn Greenwald
And Mr. Ricks wants a new war in Libya? Are there any limits? Addiction to war is treatable.
C130 goin down the strip, recon daddy gonna take a little trip...UHHHHHHRAHHHHH
I'm really sort of tied up in that My Lai thread , but came here for a breather.
But this gave me a bit of a conundrum. And trust me this is just devil's advocate stuff:
If the no-fly zone in Iraq was hailed as accomplishing its mission with no need to do more (like invading) back in '03 to manage Saddam, then why would a no-fly zone be unpalatable in Libya? I just find it interesting when advocates of one COA become opponents of a quite similar one.
For the record I think we have more than enough to chew on in the Middle East. Let's solve the two problems we got before taking on extra credit. I'm signing the top of my test paper with BEAT NAVY to earn another point or two.
You maybe on to something Good Buddy. Maybe, just maybe, just anecdotally, possibly, budgetarily, could-be, the USN and USAF TacAir types aren't playing (enough) games lately and want to get in on the action? No-Fly is tailor made for carrier ops and USAF sorties from Close Base.
Who is pushing for LibNFZ in the planning rings at Puzzle Palace, Arlington?
"Washington could help oust one of the most repressive autocratic regimes in the world without sending a single soldier to the battlefield. The Libyan rebels in Benghazi, Tobruk, Misrata and other liberated cities are ready and willing to fight Qaddafi's forces, when they are supplied with weapons that can match Qaddafi's."
Really? I wasn't aware that powerful weapons can be easily distributed and deployed without any type of training. Most of the rebels do not have military training, that's why they are losing ground. What would better weapons do to people who don't know how to best use them?
But let's just pretend that Qaddafi is a pushover and that with awesome weapons the rebels will topple him, then what? If there is anything which we SHOULD HAVE learned from Iraq, it would be that removing the dictator is only the beginning and the easiest part. Saddam was removed and executed years ago. The biggest challenges (and the costliest) which the US faced came afterward. The responsibility associated with nation building is the main reason nations do not wish to get involved with Libya despite the temptation of oil.
I just want to make it clear that I agree with Obama's recent decision in Libya and North Africa in general.
That said, I want to ask why some liberal groups now within the United States are now supporting interventionism in Libya/Egypt/etc when they spent the past 7 years railing against that sort of thing? Many if not most of the arguments were surrounded around the idea of sovereignty and legality, yet now supporting interventionism?
I don't mean this to incite inflammatory discussion of left-right politics, I just don't understand the flip flop. Saddam kills 300,000 of his own people, Gaddafi has not killed that many to my knowledge yet you want us to go into conflict with him. The level of cognitive dissonance going on right now astounds me, how can you change your views on interventionism when it suits you? That goes for conservatives as well, but I will leave that be I guess.
If the rebels take over and install someone like Gaddafi, what will this solve. There is no indication that won't happen, and opportunism seems inevitable in these revolutions seems inevitable. The only ethical policy is to allow them to work out there own affairs, I know that sounds bad and we could level the playing field for the rebels easily, but that's the ethical thing to do.
The majority of the US Left and the Right, with the Center in particular, are operating from the same expansionist, bourgeois Anglo-Protestant worldview, regardless of the ancestries of specific individuals or whether they are religious or not. Some people call it American Exceptionalism, although Britain had a similar sense of mission, the dying gasps of which we see in British angst now.
This world-view is Messianic, Manichean, Universalist and expansionist. The concerns of its adherants have changed as US society has become more secular and diverse, although there is a large Evangelical subset whose concerns remain traditional.
Historically speaking, not all US Protestants and not all Anglo-Americans subscribed to American Exceptionalism. It has grown, however, to the point that the majority of Americans now have have incorporated this worldview. Only in marginal cases has it been openly rejected. The variations we see on American Exceptionalism can probably be explained by political and cultural osmosis. American Exceptionalism in different regions and with different groups mixed with pre-existing ideas.
There are Americans who are ideologically opposed to American Exceptionalism and Interventionism as dangerous, but they have been in the minority. Don't let current angst fool us, Interventionism is temporarily unpopular because of war fatigue and economic woes. The Interventionist impulse has suffered setbacks, but at no point has it been fundamentally questioned. Indeed, despite historical warnings against Universalism and Interventionism, presidents have been able to capitalize on Americans' desire to see their country as on a messianic mission. As Jim Gourley pointed out (kill the bad guys vs. help the little guys) the difference is how to accomplish that God given responsibility. These differences are important and will affect strategy, so I don't wish to downplay them.
Our leadership, it is safe to say, is firmly committed to this worldview. How interventionist causes are selected is an interesting question, crass economic or political concerns probably dictate which causes will be chosen. Moralizing calls for intervention have rarely proven strong enough to start a war, this has been true since the Civil War. Much of this has been true of British Imperial expansion.
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