My only take was that Tom was pointing out that the casualties were generated by small arms fire which draws one to the conclusion that the tactical nature of the incident was different from common casualty reports which seem to come from IED’s. The second thing I took away was that the Taliban fighters (who may have suffered worse) seem to be quite willing to take on American troops in close combat. According to Sen. Lindsay Graham’s most recent statements the other day from Kabul the Taliban are losing big time but these scrappy fellows must not have tuned in to his press conference to get the message that they were on the verge of defeat.

I'll certainly defer to Tom as to his intent. In large part because of Tom's reporting, I believe that invoking Wanat does more than simply describe the tactical nature of an engagement. I believe that Tom understands this (but again, I'll defer to him). Having been involved in previous actions whose initial media coverage was inaccurate, I have to this point been appreciative of Tom's tendency to seek a higher standard of understanding before using his platform. I see this post as a deviation from that standard.

The recent KIAs took place in the Watapor Valley, which is one valley to the east of the Waygal Valley where Wanat was. The Watapor contains Nuristanis related to the Waigali people at its extreme northern end, but is mostly Safi Pashtun in its central or southern areas, although there is one village (Qatar Kala) which speaks a unique Dardic (i.e. Indic) dialect.
This recent action was an offensive operation, whereas Wanat was a defensive stand. We currently do not have detailed information about what happened but it is obvious that this was no suprise attack from dead space against a fixed position. Seems there was unusually accurate fires from the enemy in this case. Aside from the geographical proximity, then, this action really is not reminiscent of Wanat.
Since the evacuation of the Waygal, Lindy Sin (Kamdesh) and Korengal Valleys, insurgent activity in the Pech corridor seems to have greatly increased. Maybe there was some value in garrisoning those "remote" outposts, after all?

"Since the evacuation of the Waygal, Lindy Sin (Kamdesh) and Korengal Valleys, insurgent activity in the Pech corridor seems to have greatly increased. Maybe there was some value in garrisoning those "remote" outposts, after all?"

Show me an area where violence isn't up. Don't confuse correlation with causation.

Particularly when you can't draw conclusive connections between Kamdesh and the Pech in the first place. Which you really can't. Having spent a lot of quality time at these "remote outposts" I would argue you are drawing conclusions that are not supported by facts or intel. But at least you have a better sense of what is happening on this thread than most.

Lack of knowledge about the ground situations in Kunar and Nuristan has never stopped anyone on this blog from pontificating. But that is what the Internet is for.

This is not about Al Qaeda or even the Taliban. It is more about timber and gemstone smuggling meets Tony Soprano.

I guess at least one poster assumes if you do not agree with his assessment of the situation in Kunar you are an internet "pundit" with no knowledge. This may not be the case. It does not take a guy in an OP outside COP Michigan to realize that enemy activity in that area has sharply increased since the Korengal was evacuated. Providing the enemy with sanctuary areas north and south of the Pech Valley has threatened the valley.

Oh and is this really Tony Soprano? How come the head insurgent (and his predecessor as well) in Kunar is an Egyptian? Is timber and gem smuggling so lucrative it is attracting foregn businessmen? How come some local Korengali fighters look like Chechens or only speak Arabic and not Korengali?

In fact, the Korengal seems to have become a hub of foreign fighters. (Oh wait since I'm not standing on a hilltop looking at that valley, I guess I'm "uninformed.")

And where did the insurgents take that British woman when they kidnapped her in the Kunar River Valley? Yes the Korengal.

There may actually be some value in retaining positions in places where the enemy previously (and presently since we left) have interest and base areas. And yes Barg-e-Matal has value too since the locals actually favor the government there it is nice to see the government wants to control the area and secure the population. Barg-e-Matal may, in fact, be the Basra of Afghanistan when looked at 10 years from now.

RME71 writes: “What would have been said about the troopers at the Ia Drang in Nov 1965 when over a hundred were lost in a single day?”

What can be said of them is that brave men died for a piece of real estate that was promptly abandoned. The NVA learned that the only way to negate American fire superiority (ground, air and artillery) they had to grab the Americans by the belt buckle fight up close. What is amazing is that they were quite willing to take a horrific bloody killing in order to do so.

JPWREL, one thing to always remember about the North Vietnamese is that they were prepared to endure longer than was America. When their men came down from up north, they were in the south to stay, and never was there any thought other than continuing to fight, and die, until the U.S. got tired of it.

However, one should also never forget that Hanoi exercised enormous strategic leverage over an astutely controlled and manipulated population that enabled this - does Omar, or another, have this leverage with the Taliban?

Unfortunately, young men will continue to die until we find out for sure.

Don, my point was that few governments, such as was found in Hanoi, could martial a population’s spirit and unwavering dedication so fervently, to accept the horrendous casualties they did, and whether the Taliban will prove they are also willing to continue to absorb a modicum of that.

It does sound familiar. But you are wrong, we did have a goal in South Viet-Nam, a goal I see once again in Afghanistan: combining a military solution, based far too long on flawed strategy, to bring about a political way out to exit, but never to win. All at the steep price of five young men’s lives from the 101st.

"What would have been said about the troopers at the Ia Drang in Nov 1965 when over a hundred were lost in a single day?"

Get out.

Walt

Actually, many governments were able to muster that sort of strength in their people just in this past century. Look at the bloody holocaust of WW1 for all sides and yet British, German, French, Russian, Austrian's all took horrific casualties and yet persisted. The Serbian's were almost wiped out as a people. Battle casualties in that war where measured in multiples of hundreds of thousands. The Austrian’s in the winter of 1914-15 took over 700,000 casualties in their dance with the Russians.

In WW2 the Japanese, Germans and Soviets had ferocious disciple and insensitivity to massive casualties similar to the North Vietnamese. They fought with ferocity virtually incomprehensible to the western democracies armies. I see no reason why the Afghans (as unpleasant a society that it is) fighting for their own country since the original Soviet invasion, and even long before that would be intimidated by sacrifice. If anyone is going to blink over the bloodshed it is far more likely that it will be us.

This whole meme about how Vietnam is now capitalistic and we had to stop the dominoes - OR WE DIDN'T - is so much revisionist history.

We'll never know what might have happened if we hadn't made that stand in Vietnam. It was an important action in the fight against communism. Perhaps in and of itself not the successful one we needed to stop it cold, but perhaps a key link in the chain. Like the supporting of mujaheddin in Afghanistan against the Soviet occupation each link played an important part.

We're dealing with that backlash now, but the fact is there is no redos, no going back, and mistakes back then still play an important part in the history we are making today. So stop with the 50,000 wasted lives junk. We don't know what their blood paid for in the end. We do know that the Soviet Union collapsed (which was at least part of our goals) and Vietnam is at least partially capitalistic now (another part of our goals).

Whoa Hunter... You had better go back and re-explore the thought process of the day before you throw around revisionism labels. "Communism" the big bad red ink spot expanding across the map while us poor school children huddled under our desks awaiting the coming H-Bombs, was just as bad as the false fear generated by the Bush Administration for the "Global War on Terror".
Both today's problems and Vietnam stink of political-industrial-military desires to fleece the country of money and power on the backs of mis-use of young active duty (and Reserve/Guard) lives.
You really have to justify why 58K names are on the monument in DC. Tell me how the world has improved with their loss. USSR fell and Vietnam going "capitalism" are NOT resultant from the "American War" in VN.

Supporting the Pashtun muj against Roosha didn't necessitate encouraging the Saudis to open jihad recruiting branches in NYC and Western Europe.

A reasonable national security state would have seen undue risk in that. And a functioning democratic republic would have demanded accountability. But revision of history and national myth creation are normal gov't functions, back to the invention of Solomon and Goliath.

That said, students of Nixon who think Ho's stalinist personality cult were the good guys needs more fiber in their diet.

TGIF.
When are we gonna have that beer?

No one knows what would have happened, because that line of history didn't happen. Call it the Butterfly Effect.

I wish those things hadn't happened (50K dead) but I am not clairvoyant - and neither are you. You know what else I wish didn't happen? I wish having gone into there that we didn't abandon our so-called allies after the fact. My Dad fought in Vietnam as an adviser - he went to his grave angry that we betrayed his friends (and their families)....who were no doubt later condemned to death or imprisonment for their efforts. He called his Vietnamese counterpart officer "the bravest man I ever met" and he didn't throw compliments like that around too often.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda, but I tend to believe the smallest things have more effect than the they get credit for and the big ones get too much credit. Regardless none of us will know.

Where do you live again GSF?

Drum AO

Agree with you on this one Jim

AIR ASSAULT!

I went to a big anti-Bush protest in DC in 2005. They took 4 bus loads from Atlanta. They were a bunch of nut jobs. One guy was talking about 'one world government'. They thought I was a cop. I went to a Cindy Sheehan support rally down here by Emory University in that same time frame. One lady even said that, "We thought you were a cop."

Until I opened my mouth. All I had to say was, "George Bush is a war criminal."

Walt