Get the sharp things away from you. Have a jigger of Scotch.

Would it be wrong to suggest that the anecdotal evidence out there is that the Marine Corps has a reputation as the nations elite conventional arm and that USMC officers are generally considered superior combat leaders to Army officers? ‘If’ that is the case why not just find out what it is that the USMC does to select and train its officer material and have the Army try to duplicate that process as closely as possible?

Tom:

If you are so hell-bent on your anti military academies crusade, and in this case west point, why dont you at least get an up to date, current view of the place instead of the Bateman rememberring what it was like when he taught there 10 years ago.

gian

Color me confused. I'm an ROTC product who also saw USMA's summer military training program(s) up close and personal as an active duty 1LT.

The light infantry battalion I served in at Ft. Drum was tasked one summer to provide training support to the USMA Cadets. A light infantry battalion from Ft. Drum or Ft. Campbell deploys every year to provide that training.

I thought the training looked pretty damn good. Our battalion spent the better part of six months preparing for that summer training.

Significant instructor/support assets were also provided from Ft. Bragg.

A USAR Drill Sergeant company was also deployed to ensure training was conducted to standard.

Now, for my first-hand ROTC experience. On-campus training is episodic and wildly inconistent from campus to campus.

For "four year", traditional ROTC Cadets, off-campus training has been distilled to a 5 week camp at Ft. Lewis. Much of the IET/CTT training that was part of the ROTC camp POI pre-1998 is gone. Most ROTC cadets now learn basic soldier skills on their home campuses with varied resource levels and instructor quality.

If the author has issues with the climate of USMA during the academic year, that's one thing. The quality of the summer military training is quite another.

Let's not forget the summer experience that USMA cadets get through CTLT, DCLT and Airborne/Assault/Mountain Warfare

Note: this is probably my first stridently pro-USMA post. The notion that ROTC pre-commisioning training (the military aspect) is superior to USMA is laughable and out-of-touch.

Oh please, please, the source should be attacked because its assessment is based on observations from many years ago yet it conveys a sense of knowing the place now.

Come on Tom, get real.

I have spent the last three years at West Point. It has its problems to be sure. But one of the bright spots of the place based on my observations has been the very military training that Bateman criticizes. In fact at the end of every summer I make it a point to talk to the majors who work for me and who spent parts of the summer as trainers for the cadet summer training. When I ask them a very general question about the quality of the training they routinely tell me that it was excellent, top notch. They comment on how the summer training they observed focused on problem solving and not rote memorization of solutions to tactical problems.

Perhaps you should solicit the observations of Don Vandergriff whose work on the theory and practice of training army officers has played a significant role in the training program that they have developed. Or perhaps get Casey Haskins, head of DMI at west point, to opine on the topic.

But dude, get a current observation before you go off on your crusade to bash the academies. I am sure you can find criticism of the place and its military training, but to reaffirm my basic point, at least make it current and therefore relevant and useful.

gian

I don't know when these observations were made, but during my time as a cadet there (1998-2002) the summer training was excellent. As was previously mentioned, a battalion from 10th Mountain or the 101st would come down/up to execute the training. We did air assaults, boat ops, and patrolling. During "Infantry Week" in our second summer, instructors from the Q school and Ranger school would come up to be squad O/Cs. We were also exposed to (and fired) just about every weapons system the Army fields. Also as mentioned, Cadet Troop Leadership Training is mandatory for graduation and it was the most formative part of my military training.

There is a valid point that USMA cadets don't do field training during the academic year, but that seems to be a time issue. But we did receive quite a bit of classroom training on leadership and tactics - to say nothing about the Mil Art classes.

Please do get that email - I think the head of DMI could shed a bit more light on this.

Jason

Gian,

Oh c'mon, do you seriously think that I didn't bother to check with a couple of recent grads before I posted that? Once again, Gian, you made an assumption before checking. Had you just e-mailed me, you would've known in a trice.

The field tactical training for USMA cadets was, and is still, essentially confined to a wonderful summer training in the summer after plebe year (rising yucks). And then, of course, there are the "Winter Intercessions"...which are all conducted indoors. (IRR, that is also the answer to your question. You supported the field training exercise for the plebes coming in to "Beast Barracks"...which is more like, "Acclimation 101" and the very good few weeks of tactical training for the Sophmores (called "Yucks" at West Point) And, for the record, as an ROTC Cadet I also went through CTLT and Airborne, as both of those are open to ROTC as well, and still are.)

The Majors who work for you, Gian, are all devoted to supporting either that few weeks of tactical training for the Yucks, or the largely non-tactical training Plebes. Once upon a time I was one of those majors (not under Gian, for those reading), and as I've just said, that extremely limited in time and scope training was great.

But as a cadet I did six Air Assaults, two small boat riverine insertions, E&E exercises, and had three hours, weekly, in the field, tactical patrol/small unit training, FOR THREE YEARS. Hell, as I've told many, I did worse (and for that matter, more realistic) patrols as a cadet under Laws and Brown than I did in Ranger School. And I suggest you check with Don, because he set up a program much the same when he was in the ROTC program at Georgetown. (And considering the challenges of getting cadets to "the field" from inside DC...vice the non-challenge of getting cadets into a field environment at USMA, his success on that score could teach USMA loads.)

If you don't think that my points are current, perhaps you should do your own assessment of how much tactical military field (and garrison for that matter) training is actually occurring in your own backyard, eh?

(SIDEBAR: I don't doubt that Casey is as frustrated as I am. But HE can't change things there. He can only improve at the margins, but the time is a zero sum game thing is immutable. He does wonders with the tiny little slivers of time that he is afforded. But he can't change the system.)

(SIDEBAR 2: For Readers: Just in case you don't know, Gian and I are actually quite good friends. We both just love arguing, and obviously, neither of us are afraid of either public discourse, or slamming each other.)

Bateman

I guess this is dated info too. But it sure did surprise us. I went to Brown Field OCS and thence to the Basic School at Camp Barrett. That was 1981-82. I have never been to Annapolis. Any way towards the end of TBS they asked our class if anyone wanted to stay around and supervise the midshipmen’s stay at Camp Barrett that summer while they learned about the Marine Corps. The program was called CORPSTRAMID. A lot of us volunteered, thinking it was a good way to remain in the northern Virginia area but not be officer-students. I wasn’t selected. One of my friends who I saw later in the fleet was.

Later I asked him how it went. He said it was a nightmare. The mids were unruly and undisciplined. They broke curfew. They got drunk. They got arrested. They fraternized with each other. They broke every rule there was.

It just was surprising. I wonder if it is any better now. Somehow I doubt it.

Walt

This quote is spot on not only to West Point but I would suspect all other service acadamies and institutions like The Citadel and VMI:

"The fact is that cadet life at USMA, also known as West Point, ironically creates one of the most anti-military (and misogynist) sub-cultures I've ever seen, anywhere, and that includes every infantry battalion I've ever served in over the years."

There are usually 3 types of student at all these institutions (generally):

1) Believers: Love everything about the academy and nothing will change their mind. There is nothing wrong with this but I would say they're typically not your outside the box thinkers. Typically kiss the ass of the TACs.
2) Non Believers: Usually molded that way out of a hatred for the pettiness of the academy but deal with it just to graduate. These are the folks the military really needs more of to generate creative solutions. Typically they are a TACs worst nightmare.
3) Athletes: could care less, most will do 4yrs and get out.

You may go there with the intent of being a believer but after seeing all ridiculous antics of the academy you become frightened and think that if the actual Army (whatever branch) is even slightly like this you want no part. The C like. Most go there with the intent of serving in the military. Four years later, less than 50% do so.

This training discussion is great and all but if you lose minds because of the everyday BS during the school year, most could care less about the summer training (or whenever). They will actually come to resent any training because it's an activity related to the academy.

what was said: The C like

what was meant to be said: The Citadel I think is a pretty good case study into this idea due to the fact that one can go the civilian route if they like. Most go there with the intent of serving in the military. Four years later, less than 50% do so.

the sight of grown men pissing on each other's shoes.

Bob Bateman enjoyed some exceptional training experiences during his cadet days in Newark, DE, which is conveniently located near Army training facilities at Aberdeen Proving Grounds. As IRR observes above, however, such opportunities vary wildly from program to program, while the resources allocated to the Army's Cadet Command have atrophied significantly over the past 25 years (just ask a deputy PMS, who is now a COMTEK contractor). I agree with Bob that USMA has significant cultural problems, but cadets at West Point receive several weeks of intense military training during their yearling and cow summers and enjoy numerous opportunities to attend military schools during their upper class summers, while USMA supports dozens of military-related clubs and activities during the academic year, including Sandhurst teams, drill teams, and seminars on leadership, military history, and current events. Rather than doubting the quality of training provided at USMA, I question the wisdom of continuing to spend so much money to produce a small percentage of new officers, while ROTC (by far the Army's largest commissioning source) makes do with table scraps. --Bill Latham

The West Point/ROTC/OCS quality argument has gone on as long as West Point has existed. I recommend "Soldiers and Civilians" by Marcus Cunliffe. The book looks at the arguments against USMA from it's founding to the Civil War, and the impact that West Point graduates had during that war. Essentially, the argument against West Point was that it was elitist, expensive and out of touch with the republic while the state training academies and other schools such as Norwich and VMI (which produced officers primarily for the state militias) were republican, inexpensive and just as effective in producing officers.

IWest Point's value to the nation is inverse to how much that nation supports it's armed forces. When you have strong support and quality college students sign up for ROTC, then the officers you get from West Point aren't as crucial to the Army. But when you have general anti-military feeling (which, we forget, has been more often than not), West Point is crucial not only for the number of officers it produces,but as a nucleus and cultural center for the Army.

I was commissioned from the Univ of Pittsburgh ROTC program in the mid-1970's (yes, my first assigned weapon was an M14). It had lost academic credit as the school's protest against Vietnam. We were told to NOT wear uniforms on campus and our drills were done WAY off campus. With a school undergrad population of 18k, we commissioned about 10 officers a year. ROTC scholarships could be had just by applying for them and I never saw anyone dropped from the program. (Only cool part was that Matthew Ridegeway, who had for some reason retired in Pittsburgh, pinned my bars on.) As you might expect, some of our products were not stellar.

In the late 80's, I taught ROTC in the same area and we were commissioning well over our target goals and the quality was excellent. Because of the draw down fo the Army at the time, only the top roughly 20% of the ROTC class was getting active duty. A few years later, when I was an Inf Bn S3/XO, I thought the ROTC products were better but I think it was because they had survived a pretty strong cut to get active duty while the USMA grads merely had to survive once they got accepted.

But even then, I noticed one thing about West Pointers: they are like cops or nuns. They never go anywhere alone and they always know people. Right from the start they are part of a collective whole. Amongst themselves they know who can be counted on and who can't. They have a network of recent grads and former TAC officers who they can contact for anything.

That's not a small thing. Knowing where and who to go to fix things is half of solving problems (as I discover every day in my civilian career). Knowing that you have this ability is empowering. In a larger perspective, It was these networks and shared sense of experience that produced a cadre for a US Army which allowed it to expand rapidly when we needed it (Civil War, WWI, WWII).

In any case, we shouldn't count on this continued pro-military sentiment and the ability of ROTC to supply quality officers. We also shouldn't discount the role that West Point plays in the culture of not only the Army but the nation, It is when the nation least likes the military that West Point is all the more important.

A select number of Army ROTC cadets have the opportunity to participate in the sophomore summer field training (CTFT) at USMA.

A select number of West Point cadets have the opportunity to participate in Warrior Forge (LDAC) for ROTC cadets at Ft. Lewis.

This exchange is a GREAT program and should probably be expanded. DISCLOSURE: I am a product of ROTC and had an extremely talented West Pointer in my PLT (and SQD for patrolling) at LDAC. Our mutual observations:

1) The average ROTC cadet probably gets as more technical and tactical training. This observation is based on our shared experience of CTFT and LDAC--the caveat here is that most ROTC cadets going to CTFT are rising MSIII (Juniors compared to the Yucks at USMA), and the USMA cadets at LDAC are rising Cows compared to ROTC's MSIVs (Seniors). My battle buddy could not definitively say, however, that he would have gotten the lacking tactical training in his Cow year.

2) The USMA cadets did seem to be better planners and managers on average. Their cadet chain of command is simply more robust and they have more experience with it. They are more accustomed to conceptualizing many moving parts and they delegate well. Some commuter/multi-school ROTC BNs present their cadets with SIGNIFICANT logistical challenges to overcome in their planning/resourcing. This is great training, but I imagine it is the exception rather than the rule for ROTC programs.

3) The leadership qualities on bothsides were a wash. As far as CTFT vs LDAC, those cadets picked to make the exchange generally were high caliber individuals.

My own thoughts:

Perhaps someone can help me out here, but I think its been a statistical dead heat between the performance of USMA vs. ROTC 2LTs at BOLC for the past number of years. If so, there is no value added for USMA grads on the measurables immediately after their respective commissioning programs. USMA grads have more success with their long term career goals in the Army, but that is another story.

The REAL benefits of West Point are 1) the first-rate academic education--OK, many subjects are taught be O-3 and O-4s without a PhD--but I don't think they are any less qualified than MOST of the masters-level TAs teaching classes at MOST universities in the US.; and 2) the passive learning experience from a historic institution with well-"travelled" faculty who are more focused on their cadets than their own research and/or PhD students. I, for one, would have loved to attend USMA.

Does a product of ROTC, having spent the last 4 yrs with regular people, have an easier time relating to and motivating JOE? Is he or she more well-rounded as an individual? Maybe.

Does a graduate of West Point, so imbued with the tenets of DUTY HONOR COUNTRY, better appreciate his/her great responsibility as an officer? Are they better role models for soldiers and civilians alike? Maybe.

Does the USMA pedigree infer a better quality combat leader than an ROTC graduate from a comparable academic insitution--like Notre Dame, Wake Forest, Northwestern, Stanford, UVA, etc...? Probably not.

Is there anything wrong with that? No.

The multiple tracks one can take to becoming an offcer strengthen the American officer corps. Some of us must defend the faith, some must come up from the enlisted ranks to inject a little reality into our discussions and plans, and the rest must be selected from the widest possible distribution of eligible/capable American citizens. Thats how you cultivate the talent to win a war.

What I don't appreciate are the few remaining institutional biases against ROTC grads. I am not referring to the liklihood of promotion, etc... My concerns are more tangible.

Here are two:

There is an undserved stigma associated with ROTC because its the "Reserves." Suffice it to say, that line of reasoning should carry even less weight today, given the frequent deployments of many reserve and national guard soldiers. But, until recently, even those officers going on to active duty from ROTC were commissioned as Reserve Officers. They did not actually become Regular Army until they were promoted to field grade. This is still the case to an extent. Graduating from ROTC, I was still commissioned as a Reserve Officer. But, I switched over to Regular Army as soon as I reported. (This has an important bureaucratic function described below.) Point being: perhaps its time to do away with the "R" in ROTC.

ROTC grads are immediately pushed to the back of the line after commissioning. USMA grads generally move straight on to their officer basic course in short order after graduationafter a short paid leave. ROTC grads (even those going on active duty), however, can be forced wait up to a year to attend their basic course. Let me say this again--ROTC grads going on active duty can be forced to wait up to a year without pay and without health benefits to begin their service. (FY2010 was the first year an new 2LT was covered under TRICARE immediately after commissioning--spouses and children remain uncovered). It is therefore possible, for a combat veteran and newly commissioned officer to be forced into poverty waiting for his or her report date. God help the family if a child gets sick.

This is all possible because ROTC grads are commissioned as Reserve Officers, existing in the gray area of IRR. Army utilizes this useful accounting trick in a time when resources are scarce, but in my view, active duty is active duty. Let's drop the favoritism here.

In short, Tom, USMA is worth the investment. I came to ROTC as a graduate student, my battle buddy came to ROTC and a veteran from the 3rd Ranger Battalion, and my USMA squad-mate at LDAC is as fine of an officer today as anyone I've ever met. The Army needs all of us. There's strength in that diversity, but I would like to see some more equality.

One of my sons is a recent USMA graduate; I am a grad of USNA and served in the Marine Corps. The situation Bateman describes a quarter centry ago might have been correct then, but it isn't now. The Academy now provides excellent tactical training- a much better job training USMA cadets to become LTs than my alma mater does in training midshipmen how to be Marine 2/Lts. During the summer training they get lessons-learned from Iraq and Afghanistan and pracitce drills that they will do when commissioned and leading platoons. The Sandhurst program, where each company provides at least one team for the military skills competition is another excellent opportunity to learn and do tactical training. Add to that the other summer training and the training that done during the academic year as a cadet, and the opportunities abound. There is a chain of command that the cadets operate,and that provides a tremendous laboratory for leadership training. As noted, the ROTC situation vary from school to school and era to era. Great that Mr. Bateman had such opportunities at Delaware, but that isn't always the case.