Posted By Thomas E. Ricks Share

Here is a conversation with my officemate, Robert Kaplan, who has written a lot of interesting books, and has a new one out today, titled Monsoon: The Indian Ocean and the Future of American Power, about the growing political importance of the Indian Ocean basin.

If after reading this you want more, come on down the evening of Nov. 9 to his CNAS book rollout, hear him talk, buy a book, and get it signed. And if you mention "Best Defense" Bob might give you a free beer. Register here.

Best Defense: What made you turn to the Indian Ocean as a book subject?

Robert Kaplan: In 2006, I saw a few references to the Indian Ocean in military journals. So I did what I always do when hunting for a new project, I consulted an atlas. As I stared at the map, the book began to emerge in my mind: Here was the entire arc of Islam from the Sahara Desert to the Indonesian archipelago. Here was the global energy interstate, through whose waters pass the hydrocarbons from the Middle East to the middle class cities of East Asia. Here was a vehicle to get beyond Islam as strictly a phenomenon of Middle Eastern deserts and take in its green, tropical allure in the Far Eastern seas as well. Here was a way to connect the issues of Islam and China in one book. Another influence upon me was the teaching post I had at the time at the Naval Academy in Annapolis, where I met colleagues who had experience on warships in these waters, and they told me their stories.

BD: What do you think will be the biggest surprise in the book for readers of this blog?

RK: This blog has tended to concentrate, as it should, on the wars of the moment, in Iraq and Afghanistan, messy land wars where counterinsurgency is a doctrine that the U.S. military is pursuing. This book takes military issues beyond those of the day, and suggests a future where our challenges may be primarily maritime. China and its naval rise, and the possible threat it poses to the Indian Ocean and adjacent South China Sea, figure prominently in this book, while Iraq and Afghanistan figure barely at all. Central Asia figures, though, because it will one day be linked by roads and energy pipelines to the Indian Ocean. Pakistan figures heavily, but here, too, I concentrate on what the media has generally ignored: the restive provinces of Baluchistan and Sindh on the Indian Ocean. The surprise of this book is that future wars and conflicts may be vastly different than the ones of the moment. Instead of fighting neighborhood by neighborhood in Baghdad or Kandahar, we may in the future have to influence vast spaces on the map through naval maneuvers.

BD: Some of your previous books have had dark scenarios and descriptions. Is this book also pessimistic?

RK: No. This is my most optimistic and -- hopefully, that is -- nuanced work. Of course, the reader will be the judge of that! The interweaving of civilizations in the Indian Ocean is incredibly complex, and it was a real struggle for me to adequately communicate it. It was certainly the hardest book I ever wrote -- the book where I did more reading and research than any previously. As I get older, writing just gets more difficult and complicated. I did not set out to be an optimist. But my conclusion is that the Greater Indian Ocean is evolving into a vibrant, multipolar trading system reminiscent of the Muslim and Chinese trading systems that preceded Vasco da Gama in these waters. And for the United States to maintain its power it will have to listen more to the yearnings of hundreds of millions, Muslims and non-Muslims alike, who are not concerned with al-Qaeda, but with attaining a middle class standard of living. If you want to hear the authentic voice of the emerging, former third world, watch Al Jazeera, and maybe dip into my book.

BD: What do you think you will write about next, and why?

RK: I have started writing a book about geography, about the great geographers of the past and how to incorporate their sensibilities in order to approach places like Russia, China, Iran, and Turkey in hopefully a new and original light. Whereas, Monsoon involved enormous traveling, this next book involves endless reading. I don't believe we have overcome geography, despite the jet and information age. The Hindu Kush, the Tibetan and Iranian plateaus, and the riverine wastes of Siberia, to name a few examples, still matter to international politics, as they deeply affect the behavior of nations. As Napoleon said, if you want to know a nation's foreign policy, inspect its geography. That's what I am now trying to do.

amazon.com

 

DAVECHENEY

11:42 AM ET

October 19, 2010

Kaplan and South Asia

I have read Kaplan's CNAS paper from August on South Asia's Geography of Conflict, and look forward to the longer read. As we have found it to be true in Iraq and Afghanistan, he states of India "but even as the Indian political class understands at a very intimate level America's own historical and geographical situation, the American political class has no such understanding of India's." What mistakes will we make if we do not take the time now to understand this region? How will we fix mistakes already made without a better understanding of South Asia? My hope is that after reading the book I will understand the area better, and that decison makers at State, Defense, and other agencies read it and learn from it as well. The learning must never stop!

 

DAVID EDENDEN

12:51 PM ET

October 19, 2010

Robert Kaplan and Peace in the Balkans

can you ask you good friend Robert Kaplan"

1. Why he cant fine any ethnic Macedonians in Greece?

http://the-macedonian-tendency.blogspot.com/2007/07/why-cant-robert-kaplan-find-any.html

2. Does Kaplan agree the every racist, every fascist and every ethnic cleanser in the Balkans sees Greece's treatment if its ethnic Macedonia minority in Greece and Turkey's treatment of its Kurdish minority as a model of how to treat their own minorities ... and that NATO should pay reparation payments the Macedonians and Kurds for aiding and abetting cultural genocide?

 

DEMITRI

8:30 PM ET

October 20, 2010

the evils of extreme nationalism

NATO is committing "genocide" now? I'm pretty sure the generals in NATO would have a good laugh over that one. If anything the current regime of the former Yugoslavia Republic seems to be the one intent on ethnically cleansing all traces of its own ethnic Bulgarian past.

"This (US) Government considers talk of Macedonian "nation", Macedonian "Fatherland", or Macedonia "national consciousness" to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece." - U.S State Department Dec. 1944
http://tinyurl.com/nel46d

Please remind us again why so many FYROM nationalists are now portraying NATO member Greece as occupied territory?
http://www.sae.gr/files/img/full/1228.jpg

And what happened to all the past claims of your own elected officials who stated quite clearly to the world (before name recognition) that you weren't claiming a relationship to ancient Macedonia?

"We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great" (FYROM'S Ambassador Ljubica Acevshka to US representatives inWashington, January 22 1999)

'We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian.'(FYROM´s Ambassador to Canada Gyordan Veselinov, Ottawa Citizen Newspaper 24 February 1999)

"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians" (Kiro Gligorov, FYROM's first President, Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA3kwC2YTq4

"The creation of the Macedonian nation, for almost half of a century, was done in a condition of single-party dictatorship. In those times, there was no difference between science and ideology, so the “Macedonian” historiography, unopposed by anybody, comfortably performed a selection of the historic material from which the “Macedonian” identity was created. There is nothing atypical here for the process of the creation of any modern nation, except when falsification from the type of substitution of the word “Bulgarian” with the word “Macedonian” were made.
(Denko Maleski, former Minister of foreign affairs of FYROM)
http://www.utrinski.com.mk/?ItemID=C7A7DD4ECD45C946BF6573284EC01164

etc.. .etc..

 

TYRTAIOS

1:26 PM ET

October 19, 2010

Storm rising in the Indian Ccean

What an interesting title for a book that concerns the Indian Ocean region? A region that in addition to containing about ¼ of the earth’s landmass, and home to 1/3 of the world’s population, also just by coincidence, accounts for nearly 70 % of the planet’s natural disasters. Now who’d a thunk that besides an ignorant country boy that used to collect nautilus sea shells on the beaches off the IO (anecdotally, piracy off the Somalia coast also dies down during the Monsoon season).

Mr. Kaplan ain’t lying the IO is a global energy interstate - after all, how else does one access that key prize, the Persian Gulf? Of course everyone knows in addition to a portion of our oil needs, America depends on the IO shipping lanes for something like 50 different strategic minerals these days?

I suppose it’s worth mentioning, and I hope Kaplan does too, (I ordered, and will readyour book, “you magnificent bastard!”) it should also be pointed out that India is showing it understands the importance of the IO and coastal states there will play as India evolve as a World economic power. An economic nuclear power that the U.S. will have to contend with (whatever this warming of relations crap means). A fact not lost on China, who derive 1/3 of their GDP, through foreign trade that must transit the shipping lanes, giving rise to a sure bet, China has no intention of letting India have a free reign in these waters and will seek to establish its position within the IO most aggressively.

Just for fun, put in the back of your mind Socotra Island off southern Yemen, Gan in the Maldives, and Port Victoria in the Seychelles for future reference. : )

 

CARDSHARP

5:09 PM ET

October 19, 2010

China has already started.

You're right on Chinese trade and it has already started. It's paid for Sri Lanka's 2 billion dollar port complex, it's building a rail line linking Bangladesh, and has laid ground for a major port that it will run and control in Pakistan (Gewadar? is the name I think)

 

HAIRYSTEVE20

5:15 PM ET

October 19, 2010

Sea shanties

Oh they call me hanging Johnny. Away, boys, away.
They says I hangs for money. Oh hang, boys, hang.
And first I hanged my daddy. And first I hanged my daddy.
And then I hanged my mother, My sister and my brother.
And then I hanged my granny. And then I hanged my granny.
And then I hanged my Annie; I hanged her up sae canny.
We'll hang and haul together; We'll haul for better weather.

It's highly unlikely Chinese and Indian carrier battle groups are going to be cruising the Indian Ocean any time in the next few decades (or ever). Why does the author think it's a good idea to invest heavily in an expanded naval presence in this theatre?

To what end? Does he want to interdict oil shipments to China? Guarantee free trade? Free pizza for everybody?

If you go in heavy handed looking for trouble you'll probably find it.

The author said:

"As I stared at the map, the book began to emerge in my mind: Here was the entire arc of Islam from the Sahara Desert to the Indonesian archipelago. Here was the global energy interstate..."

As I read this the image that unfolds in my mind is a trillion dollars worth of US taxpayer dollars sailing around chasing dhows and harassing dolphins.

Why not hang this silly idea now rather than finding more phantoms to lose sleep over.

 

SOLDIERSDIARY

9:56 AM ET

October 20, 2010

Kaplan

Kaplan more often than not tends to get too attached to the subject at hand. Whatever he is writing about, be it a SF team in the Phillipeans, or the Indian Ocean, it becomes "this is what we should put all of our rescources into." It makes for a lot of book sales, but if you step back and read Kaplan, you will be far less impressed.

 

STEVE SAIDEMAN

10:20 AM ET

October 20, 2010

Kaplan's record

All I can say is that perhaps my greatest contribution as the random intellectual on the US Joint Staff' (J-5) Balkan branch was to delete Balkan Ghosts from the reading list given to newcomers. I have not read Kaplan's more recent work, but Balkan Ghosts set back our understanding of everything by about 50 years.

 

NOONAN

10:30 AM ET

October 20, 2010

Book talk

For those readers in the greater Philadelphia area, the World Affairs Council of Philadelphia and the Foreign Policy Research Institute are having a BookTalk event with Robert Kaplan on Monsoon tomorrow night in Center City. Details can be found here: http://www.fpri.org/events/#indianocean .

 

Thomas E. Ricks covered the U.S. military for the Washington Post from 2000 through 2008.

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