Sorry that Reconn Runner is so unhappy but it is difficult for me to shed too many tears. When I see what my kid (who in six years has had repeated combat deployments with wounds) goes through with an endless round of physically exhausting and bruising training all over the country. Add on to that the fact that his wife gets to see him about as frequently as a solar eclipse and I have little tolerance for the whining. I know a number of his officer friends and Chief's (all combat vets) and they love their work and on a scale of 1 to 10 and I would say their morale is about 9.9! Sounds to me like these Army and malcontents have too much time on their hands and should start focusing a hell of a lot more if it on their personal physical conditioning program and cut bellyaching about the chickenshit which is a fact of life in all armed forces.

I use this quote often, though I'm not sure where it came from: "Going back to garrison life after being deployed is like turning the volume down on life, nothing is the same."

...you'll hate regular civilian life even more. Stay Army - or whatever.

JP, and JC, your points are well taken...but it is also important to remember that these combat vets are coming back to a military environment where the status quo is still to fill your days with bullshit. Unfortunately this is largely because the key members of the chain of command say "well that's the way we always do it."

I for one would like to never see a soldier with a broom in the motor pool, or pushing a lawn mower (maybe good work for extra duty but no one else) again. What a colossal waste of time and manpower better spent elsewhere
...call me crazy, they should be doing training or something.

I remember listening to a council of Colonels and Stars belaboring the fact that the officers today don't even know how to do the old garrison tasks "we all learned as lieutenants...blah, blah, blah." I about came out of my chair... these LTs and CPTs of today can claim they have seen more real combat than most of those knuckleheads in that conference room that day. They don't need to learn to be an arms room officer or NBC officer - that was the busy work bullshit we focused on in the old days. It's also why they make NCOs NBC NCOs and armorers.

But that was the old school mantra of the day - back in 2008. I wish for the day when these young LTs and CPTs are running the organization, maybe they'll be capable of focusing on the important stuff - but then again most of them will have long since left. They will leave, disenchanted, not with the repeated deployments, but all the worthless stupid shit they sufffered wedged in between those deployments.

I am with you Recon Runner. It's wrong to screw with people just because you can. Collective punishment and being treated like a child are wrong.

I am with you Recon Runner. It's wrong to screw with people just because you can. Collective punishment and being treated like a child are wrong.

You should treat this issue as serious ... when you hear it from the Marines. Until then, it's Army bullshit and reflects on that outfit's leadership, culture, and values. At worst, it's Army-on-Army pettiness and wastefulness. Heal thyself.

its all well and good tto say garrison life is BS, but it is the time in the rear that prepares you and those who have yet to deploy for the next deployment. The ability to run a range, be it a M4 qaul or a Company Live fire is an aquired skill, LTs and CPTs need to see this and go through it.
If all you rely on is your last deployment to prepare for the next one, then go install windows 95 onto your computer, it was good enough back then right? You need to stay on top of the skills you gained in combat, and learn the new TTPs as well as use of equipment that comes out between deployments. Sure the first 90 days of reset can be boring, but it does not end there.

Soldiers Diary- My point wasn't that we don't need garrison to train; my point is the exact opposite. We need to focus on training for war in garrison. IMO and as Hunter alluded to, we're allowing bureaucratic pre-GWOT tasks designed to fill out Pre-GWOT OERs/NCOERs and training time to distract us from preparing our men for combat.

JPREWL AND RD- Having seen both sides I will tell you that I would be embarrassed if the Marines didn't have higher standards. Here's an analogy; If a high school has a freestyle wrestling team and a greco roman wrestling team (overall similar but slightly different in certain ways as are the Marines/Army) with both competing for the same talent from the same pool of candidates but one team had to take fill 100 slots (Army) and the other team had to fill only 22 slots (Marines), how could you be shocked that team filling 22 slots has higher standards. Both organizations have good/bad individuals/units, but overall the Marines can afford to be more selective. The Marines also have a much better recruiting campaign. The Army can and will do much better in the future (I hope). I would also add that I'm pretty sure the Marines put out a new "flagging" policy 2-3 years ago that stated that a Marine who looks like shit in uniform (ie still meeting height/weight standards but looks over weight) can have adverse admin actions taken on them IOT address what the GEN Conway saw as issue. While the Marines may do a better job and the Army, lets not pretend they're perfect.

Teddy is correct that my first paragraph was partial hyperbole used to prove a point. My main point was the second paragraph; throwing more power points or semi annual online training requirements is going to solve our suicide problem. Leaders, peers, and subordinates (yes that includes everyone at every level) need to do a better job of supporting one another. I would bet that one conversation with a Soldier/Marine in a bad mental state is going to go a lot further than having him listen to a power point presentation.

I believe that senior leaders care about the issue but feel like its hard to show the public and the members of the military that they're addressing the problem w/o quantifiable data. A COL/GEN can show Congress that 5000 Soldiers/Marines did a 5 hour online course (with a test at the end) a lot easier than telling Congress that 15 NCOs/Officer noticed that one of the Soldiers/Marines seemed out of sorts and talked with them about their problems for 45-120 minutes and then followed up the individual to see the progress he made.

For the record, I serve in a great unit that does a better job than most at filtering out the BS and concentrating on things that will develop better individuals/leaders and prepare us for combat. Our unit is still in the Army and such is subject to the Army's policies.

You are correct that I was guilty of bitching in the first paragraph though and a lot of other people have it a lot worse than I do.

If you're on a short turnaround for your next deployment, garrison life can be far more hectic than deployment. Trying to squeeze in that valuable off time, and your "commute to work" time among soldier issues, endless meetings, training exercises, and new equipment fielding and training can be a nightmare in and of itself. (Though, this could also be a "grass is always greener" argument)

Recon Runner brings up two of my favorite pet peeves.

1.) Risk aversion for pass and leave. In the day and age where virtually everyone has a cell phone, it's a little asinine to fill out a pass form just to travel outside the local area for the weekend. Over the years, we've gone from just a brief pass form (where you're going and a contact number) to a full-blown DA 31, risk assessment, vehicle inspection, soldier/leader handshake, and a cover sheet, all turned in up to ten days in advance.

I remember trying to go to Kingston, Ontario (from Fort Drum, a mere hour away) during the Winter Olypics to see the final hockey game. Obviously, I couldn't have predicted the outcome of the game 10 days in advance. Nevertheless, in addition to all those pieces of paper listed above, I would have also needed a country briefing from my S-2, which is little more than a printout from the US State Department's website.

Now, I understand that tensions between Kingston, Ontario and Sackets Harbor, NY have had their ups and downs. There was a time when the two cities were rivals in a huge naval buildup along Lake Ontario, leading to not one, but two battles along the shores of Sackets Harbor, New York.

During the War of 1812.

Diplomatic relations between the US and Canada have mended considerably since then.

By imposing so many restrictions on soldiers, law-abiding soldiers either a.) stay at home because they didn't take the time to fill out the paperwork or b.) eventually start breaking the rules.

Let's not treat soldiers as if they're children. Let's come up with a better method of allowing them to travel--responsibly--on their precious few weekends.

I'm fully in favor of checking vehicles for safety, and ensuring soldiers have their insurance, registration, and current licenses. But only about twice a year: in the summertime (before vacation) and before it starts snowing.

After that, it becomes excessive. You begin to tell troops that you're more concerned about checking the block and covering yourself than you are with their safety. If soldiers don't come back from the weekend, find out why. (And charge them leave, if need be) If it's because they're being irresponsible, put it in writing and hammer them. Let's hold individuals accountable for individual mistakes.

Which leads me to my next point:

2.) No mass punishment.

After decades of garrison operations, the rate of DUIs has been the metric by which many company and battalion commanders have been judged. The DUI has become a mortal sin.

Don't get me wrong, I take drinking and driving seriously. But I disagree with mass punishment as the answer to these sorts of incidents.

For those not in the know, let me explain the ordeal. (The following took place as a result of a General Order published at Fort Bragg during the summer of 2004)

The morning after a soldier is arrested for a DUI, his or her entire company is called in to work for PT at 0630 for a four-mile run. Then there's a Class A inspection, followed by the offender--often in tears by this point--giving a PowerPoint class entitled "My Bad Decision".

Now, the Army has a mixed track record with dealing with social issues. While sometimes, we've done well (racial integration), there are times where the distinctly military approach is inappropriate. Such is the case with mass punishment.

To be fair, it's surprisingly effective at quelling DUIs. (Then again, the threat of mass punishment was also effective at preventing Viktor Frankl from trying to escape concentration camps, though I'm not sure this is the best model)

Two things stick out about the mass punishment approach.

First, we're not giving the soldier the benefit of due process of the law. Before punishment is meted out, commanders have to at least listen to all the facts and evidence before rendering a verdict in such a matter. Soldiers are innocent before they are proven guilty.

Second, I also wonder why we only apply this sort of punishment to DUIs. There's far worse risky behavior on the part of soldiers: drugs, violence, domestic abuse, sexual assault, you name it. Why does mass punishment not extend cover this? Again, individuals must be held accountable for their own actions.

There are far better ways to prevent DUIs, and I say this as a commander who had ten months in garrison and no DUIs. We got the garrison command to work a deal with a taxi cab service to give rides to soldiers, where soldiers can actually reimburse the cab service if they don't have the money. We the numbers printed on a special "Get out of jail free" card that I checked each week during the safety briefing. I also had numbers stamped on red medical alert tags for myself and the first sergeant, which I required soldiers to keep on their keychains as one final reminder before they turned the ignition.

If they had ignored every single bit of help I had offered them to not drink and drive, the burden was on them.

It was customary in the Roman Legions to 'decimate'* a Legion who failed to uphold Rome's standards of military performance. Indeed, one of Caesars legions I think it was the 9th whose eagle had been taken from it for falling back without orders asked to be decimated in order to expunge the disgrace and have its eagle returned. :-)

*Summarily formal execution of every tenth Legionary of a Century, Cohort or Legion

As we draw down there is a lot more garrison to come. I wonder what percentage of Army suicides is in garrison versus deployed. Based on antidotal evidence, I bet that garrison number greatly outweighs the deployed number. After taking command during and commanding for 13 months in combat, I saw garrison as an opportunity to develop my unit. We came out of combat extremely cohesive and then had 60% turnover in about 45 days. I was an awesome experience to part of building the new team. For those of you frustrated, it will be frustrating but look for the opportunities. There are tons of them out there – you don’t need massive amounts of resources to train soldiers.

I am at the Army's school house for majors. Over 1,400 majors are schooled here every year. You’d think the Army would say, ‘You are a 10+ year veteran and have a personal responsibility to yourself and your unit to do the right thing. You should know the difference by now. If you screw up, you get burned.’ Unfortunately this is not the case. If you want to drive more than 200 miles on a 4-day pass you must see a LTC for counseling (there is only one particular LTC for all of us) and complete a variety of other safety related paperwork. I understand that this individual truly wants no accidents – I do not know him or his motivations. Within the last year, I had to do a vehicle inspection when I returned from my last TCS deployment to Iraq. The problem was: I possessed no car. My wife, already living at the next assignment, was going to drive 2 hours to come and pick me up. I was told to do the inspection over the phone or I would not be released. REALLY? I am not sure if it makes me safer but it does make me more frustrated.

The Army is struggling to eliminate accidents, suicides, drug and alcohol abuse, etc. We are serious about it. The comments concerning ‘data’ are enlightening. We strive to be achieve quantifiable results and these are pegged to our evaluations. This being the case we add more and more ‘things’ to fix these problems. Likely, the best methods to solve our problems are unquantifiable. For example, spending time on the phone with a spouse as already stated or building a sense of team and family within a unit. My impression working for a Marine unit in 2005 was that they give and expect more from their subordinates. There is no question that a Marine lives up to expectations. There are obviously some exceptions but I think this speaks to their culture. We must add (or increase the level of) personal responsibility in our culture. Making everything the leader’s problem can breed a sense of irresponsibility. There is a fine line however: “The CO never said I shouldn’t drink and drive” or “The CO never said I should dig a foxhole.” Which one is common sense? Establishing standards, setting expectations, and penalizing those who fail to meet them is a leaders business. Breeding discipline is not as easy skill. It can be fostered through pride or punishment but it is a factor of leadership. If the answer was easy, it would be done. I think that culture is at the heart of the problem but changing organizational culture is difficult. The real question is change it to what. I throw out adding more personal responsibility.

HUNTER, I’ve seen a log unit do almost the same thing that STARBUCK is saying. They had a PT followed by a Class A inspection, followed by a memorial service with the eulogy given by the offending soldier.

The resulting discipline...well, that must have been nice.