JPWREL all your points are well taken...but you (and many who frequent this forum) ought to pay heed to those final comments. This Marine I am assuming recognizes that the storm is truly in effect, and yet still he knows we must stay. Cognitive dissonance? Irrational? Nope, just a supreme, serene recognition of what the stakes are here.

Nobody wants to go to war, well not the sane among us. But this is a fight I think we can ill-afford to lose.

Hunter,

Not meaning to be snarky, but what exactly will be lost? Is the West in some sort of existential struggle with Dar al Islam (ala Huntingdon), or at the very least "radical" Islamists? Folks in government do this sort of vague gloom and doom routine, or else they go full on Cassandra with nightmarish visions of our cities burning and bearded men armed with ak47's driving their toyotas around a bombed out American mall, pick your city, Midwest heartland, because "we didn't fight them over there." Neither the vagueness or the full on drama aids the cause of supporters of this war. If the powers that be really want skeptics to support the effort then they will have to do a much better job of making their case (you hear this Mr. Gates?). Make the case point by point, like one would to an adult or an equal. And be prepared for when folks realistically accept that there might be a bloodbath in Afghanistan and reply, so?

Interventionists will also have to deal with the Bush engendered, but Democrat approved, idea that we are in this deep existential fight for which most people shouldn't have to sacrifice a bit. The excuse that the people don't want to fight is a weak one, Roosevelt faced the same issues. In fact, Roosevelt had a harder fight selling overseas interventionism to the populace. People tend to forget that many of the parents of the Greatest Generation were cheering on Father Coughlin through the 1930s. Things have changed, and theoretically, most Americans aren't anglophobes, nor anti-semitic, nor isolationists. People give lip-service all the time to the troops, the war, and fighting them over there. Well, the government needs to call these patriotic hordes on their bluff.

Finally, interventionists will have to deal with the discrepancy between anguished pleas about abandoning Afghan women and the tactically sound it's the tribes, Gant-esque policies that reaffirm patriarchal, gerontocratic Afghan communities. The Taliban didn't invent the burqa, rampant domestic abuse, and a host of other cultural pathologies that plague rural Afghanistan. Nor can you blame everything on the past 30 years of war. Perhaps Afghans could take a lesson from Iranians or Russians and attribute all the authoritarian tendencies in their societies to those nasty Mongol invaders.

I say all this because right now what seems at stake is the reputations of a lot of folks, multinational corporations' profit margins, and American's status as hegemon, non of which are remotely the equivalent of an existential threat, nor even an economic one, provided one isn't a DC villager or a member of the investment class.

Osama Bin Laden (whose most recent known base of operations was Afghanistan) has clearly stated his goals of re-establishment of Sharia law and a Caliphate. He has a grudge against the US for our offenses both real and imagined against the Muslim world. He clearly declared a war that extends beyond nation-states to a nebulous terrorist organization. He also stated that he expects said war to last generations.

The Middle Eastern peoples, regardless of our perceptions of them, have a long history and an even longer sense of that history. We are a babe in the woods in comparative history and we have a populace who is unswayed by even the most recent history of (9-11 or the Gulf oil spill) to change any of our basic behaviors. With just over 230+ years of longevity we have no sense of the world and no regard for other peoples. (Here's a trivia bit- in 1986 I went to my mother's hometown in Germany, guess what birthday they were celebrating? 2000th! Even Germany is young compared to the Middle East though)

Given these basic set of precepts and the fact that it is somewhat clear that Taliban/Al Qaeda base of operations has shifted to Waziristan and its neighboring tribal regions of Pakistan I think it is highly likely that these so-called terrorists - I say so-called because these terrorists are no different than our own soldiers in their perceived righteousness of cause and they all are using war as diplomacy by other means - will eventually secure the means of weapons of mass destruction, oerhaps stolen directly from their Pakistani enablers. To me it is a virtual given that this will occur sometime in the not so distant future - let' say, in relative terms, the next 100 years. I also assume that given their stated goals and 'beyond brinkmanship' that the flash to bang time between their securing of a nuclear device and using it will be almost nil. The fact that they view martyrdom as a real + adds to the reality of the fear.

NYC, Chicago, or Washington D.C. or some equivalent site will go up in a plume of nuclear flame, blast and dust...it's really just a matter of time. As they often said about terror in Great Britain - you have to be lucky 100% of the time to prevent an attack, we only have to be lucky 1% of the time to execute one. Given these basic assumptions, I for one want to maximize the span of time until they get that nuclear super weapon in their grubby hands. I am a selfish bastard, I want to make sure it doesn't happen in my lifetime and maybe my children's - that way I don't have to sit back and wonder how very stupid we were to overlook long term security for some perceived short term gain. We can do that in part by maintaining a very real presence and discernible pressure on their lines of communication and their organization as whole. As much as we are tied too the tar baby, the tar baby is tied to us. It sucks but it beats the alternative.

If you believe my assessment unrealistic or alarmist well you just ain't been paying attention, now have you.

Hunter,

I must first take issue with the sort of colonial apologetics. Americans have no sense of history? I always find it annoying to see the combination of American nationalism and American colonial inferiority complex in so many Americans. It's a weird, adolescent, self-flagellating, passive-aggressive take on countries older than ourselves. Ask a German were their family was living in the 18th century. I've been to Germany, I already know the answer. They are a Modern people surrounded by old stuff. Regarding the Middle East, they don't have history, they have a hazy perception of the past due in large part to what Westerners have taught them in the last 200 years, combined with some good old fashioned European style romantic nationalism from the 19th century, and some folkloric elements, anecdotal bits, and poetry from the Islamic centuries which never fail to overawe the unsuspecting foreigner. I think it not surprising that to this day, modern Middle Eastern and C. Asian secular humanities are still joined at the umbilical cord to the West. And this isn't collegial give and take. I found visiting ruins in Oman to be a most unsatisfying experience for this very reason.
Do you think the Iraqis remembered the Babylonians or Sumerians? Or, for that matter, that the Turks remembered the Hittites? And as far as the statues at Bamiyan, those became of interest to the Afghans only after Westerners started coming to see them. Most conservative Muslims would tell you those ancient times were the days of benighted ignorance, not worth of study. Paul Theoroux, traveling through India was shown "Mughal" buildings, of course these buildings were built by the British, but why hurt the guide's feelings. The only consistent exception to the rule of historical amnesia compensated for by outright mythology was and is Iran and its occasional outliers in C. Asia and S. Asia, and we are hellbent on destroying the Iranians. But my rant is just trivia and it isn't that important.

What is important is that it is clear that you believe we are in a deep existential struggle for our very survival. Ok, then why doesn't the West go all out? Why is Osama Bin Laden still alive? Why is it the one civilian who took it upon himself to hunt the villain down being treated like a criminal or a madman? Do you not see the disconnect between a threat of annihilation and the message of, ok folks keep moving and shopping, nothing to see here, here's a yellow ribbon. I kind of understand the idea, the citizenry are to be a nation of cheerleaders, but cheerleaders aren't willing to get dirty. And if the US is unwilling or unable (or unworthy???) of committing the time and effort to convince the Afghans et al to police themselves (though why do the hard work when Amrika will do it for you?), then the next logical step would be to tell Osama et al that he can have the Middle East, all the lands of the Dar al Islam are his for the taking and institute draconian immigration rules in the US. If you want to make sure your grandchildren survive then this seems to be the most logical step. Otherwise, just nuke the place. In the future, perhaps that nuclear mushroom might go up in London, Tel Aviv, Tehran, or Moscow (on a side note, I would be really interested to see how China would deal with the Taliban) but what can we do? You make destruction seem almost inevitable unless we fight a war the likes we haven't see for a generation. And neither COIN, nor Biden's CT plus whack a mole ain't gonna hack it. But we already have shown that we fight for profit, careers, and ideology in no certain order, but not survival. No Hunter, I have been paying attention, and have been consistently underwhelmed my whole adult life.

Middle Easterners on history- "we have a long history, you American children just wouldn't understand." Americans- "you are so right, we are just babies, shoot I don't even know my dad's name. You know, one day in England I was walking by two guys in pointy shoes making out in front of a Norman keep, and I thought, we've really got nothing on these people. BTW, when do you guys crack that cuneiform script and the hieroglyphics" Middle Eastern, mutters something, "shall I quote you some poetry or show you my picturesque grandfather?"

The message the US should be sending to its European and Middle Eastern allies "root little pigs (I know how offensive the imagery is, btw) or die. Mr. Bin Laden, we would be very interested in negotiating an oil deal with your caliphate, quick dodge that! Avigdor is on a rampage!"

While I mentioned Osama - I should have elaborated further (but email is so unwieldy). It isn't just the one boogie man, it's his myriad followers and passive supporters. And I didn't predict nuclear holocaust, just one bomb will be all it takes really.

I don't really buy in to the "there are on 60 of them left", okay what about their various subisidiaries. Indeed don't really care about Al Qaeda they are just the most easily recognizable name in the brands of radical Islamo-fascism.

Nor did I predict that the Caliph would invade the U.S. with AKs in hand.

Is it an existential threat to our existence as a nation? Nope. Well, maybe. If the mark of 9-11 was the huge disruption in the global economy when 2 towers fell and world air travel was suspended, then I suppose when ALL OF Manhattan or downtown LA is incinerated (or even just contaminated by a relatively unsophisticated dirty bomb) that we will just bump along fine. Not real likely, but possible. So perhaps even that one bomb isn't an existential threat to the nation but it certainly will be to the 10,000 - 100,000 that likely will lose their lives in an instant.

As I said, I am a selfish bastard. I only want to make sure it doesn't happen on my watch.

We underestimate our enemy to our own detriment. They are tough, tenacious, they have stated their goals in no uncertain terms, they have stated if given a nuclear device they would use it...most substantially they have stated that they are in it for the long run - which is a concept Americans can't seem to conceive of.

To the other poster - regarding our ahistorical perspective. I've been all over Europe - they have long memories. Been to Bosnia-Herzegovina they have really long memories. Been to Egypt, Iraq and Kuwait....recall that their biggest intramural gripe is the schism between Sunni and Shia - delineations we find undiscernible. They are the American equivalents of Presbyterians fighting Methodists over separations of minsicule doctrine. The difference is they are still killing each other over it - or doing other outwardly crazy things - as perceived by the 'ugly' American who is more preoccupied with Dancing with the Stars than any real knowledge of their planet. (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PICT0871.jpg )

Understood, but the point remains, Faulkner showed some initiative

and the Islamists have been clear, they want us to leave the Middle East. Which is why I said, let's just leave and maybe that bomb might go off in Moscow, Tel Aviv, Beijing (if the Uyghurs are up to snuff), etc. See, I'm selfish as well, I don't want to use my grandchildren as debt slave collateral so the Karzai boys can live to see another day. This is what Michael Scheuer has been saying for years. They don't hate us because of the Kardashians, they just don't want us around. It isn't all Americans' fault, the Europeans are just as bad for local relations. Nothing says improved relations like leathery Germans on a beach or on a sex tour. And don't even get me started on the Russians.
Regarding the flow of oil. Whose to say who is better to deal with? A bunch of religious zealots or corrupt militaristic kleptocrats? I can tell you one thing, though, the unforgivable sin as far as the West is concerned is that nasty nationalization of resources. But is it so bad, in the end, you might have to pay a bit more for oil by dealing with some of these characters, but the costs are offset by not having to maintain a bloated M.I.C. And as far as it being communism, socialism and communism are bad, but fascism is kind of worse. I still can't decide if we are more communist or corporatist in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I'll even go one further on you, I think that if the US ceased to patrol international waters thus raising the cost of shipment, it would benefit US workers. And if Somali pirates would make the cost of coca-cola go up, I can't see as that would hurt anyone.

Regarding historical memory, I've traveled as well, and what I encountered is less a case of remembering and more a case of being reminded of the past by politicians and educational systems as needed. And don't just take my word for it, that was what Chris Hedges felt about the Balkans. And historical awareness, I repeat, is once again a very 20th century cobbled entity combining elements of local folklore, some actual local history, lots of misunderstood Western studies of local history, all united by (in the case of the not extremely religious) a romantic understanding of Volk based identity that Wagner and other proto-Nazis would have appreciated, and Robert Kaplan managed to mistake for ancient awareness. Because of an interest in history and a sadomasochistic desire to hear local perspectives, I've been subjected to such historical barrages from well-meaning Europeans, South Asians and Middle Easterners (Turks are the worst) in which I felt like a wounded coyote trapped in a 100 page conversation in a Michener novel.

Doesn't sound like just 60 dudes to me:

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2000862,00.html

I bet if we ignore them they'll go away.

I repeat, I'm not the one advocating the status quo, here my friend. I'm saying let's

1) Pull out of the Middle East (and a host of other places)

2) Offer to submit to the international court, you know that rule of law thing we like to talk about. Use it as a good faith gesture. Until the day comes when a man like Cheney or Rumsfeld can be exonerated or convicted in an international court of law, all our claims to uphold int. law, mandates, etc., are a crock of crap. Sure in many ways the UN is a bully pulpit for Arab hypocrites, witness Sudan, won't argue with you there. But since we gleefully participated in the whole Balkans snafu, kind of makes us hypocrites to say there is one standard for Americans and another for Serbs and American trailer trash (Abu Gharaib).

3) Pull back and by oil from whomever. Oh God, you say, deal with Al Qaida? Well, hoss, to date more of my relatives lie in the cold, cold ground thanks to Germans than to Al Qaida, so if we are willing to let bygones be bygones with all those ex-Nazis in the West German government why not with the Islamists? Moreover, we still cheerfully deal with and defend that collection of back-stabbing (from the standpoint of the West) degenerates (from the standpoint of anybody against hypocrisy, intolerance, institutionalized misogny, child sex slaves, and evil) euphemistically known as the House of Saud, who are indirectly responsible for a good bit of terrorism. You never know, an good old fashioned religious nut might actually make for a more honest economic partner than the bunch we deal with. And as far as evil, our Turkish friends until recently were ok, no matter what butcheries they engaged in (actually the quandry that the Turkish-Iraqi -PKK Kurd issue presents to US political mythological spin-meisters is more than a bit amusing) But one big problem with the Middle East is that it is a part of the world still not completely controlled by New York and London-based usurious lending institutions, and some folks have a problem with that.

4) You might say that this will show weakness and lack of resolve. I'd counter that our current policy shows the American people to be a bunch of knuckle-dragging fools who don't mind getting ripped off on a regular basis by our political masters and whatever foreign snake-oil seller like Chelebi or Sakishvilli that comes along. You think people respect that? We aren't tough enough to really put the fear of God or Uncle Sam in the Dar al Islam. And it ain't the hippies' fault. To do what really is required, ala Mongol style, would give the lie to George and Laura Bush's democratizing, its about the little girls meme. And we will never do what would need to be done to defend ourselves against such a powerful enemy, because we aren't in an existential crisis. And if the time ever comes that Al Qaida can deliver a wmd, and not kill themselves beforehand, see my comments below for who to thank.

The US populace needs to be defended because of the bone-headed policies of our elites who refuse to punish each other, and who then charge us for said defense. It's a lovely, cyclical, exploitative process that will last until the parasite has killed its host. Everything else is just pouring bladder water on my footwear and telling me its precipitation.

Concur with your Wall Street analysis. (BTW shocked that you would incriminate yourself so, fodder for future manipulation/trolling on my part - just kidding, a little).

Also concur with the "country is in trouble." But thankful for young men such as your son who stand on walls and do harm at night so others may sleep soundly in their beds. For all the naysaying about the AVF we should all be grateful that we have such a team that bleeds, sweats and cries on our behalf. They don't get half the credit or grudging attention from the American populace they deserve. Your friend G.S> Patton said it best "The attitude of the American people as evinced by the press and the radio is such that I am inclined to think that I made a great mistake in serving them for nearly forty years."

As always my very best wishes to your SEAL, his comrades and all those others fighting the fight.

Also from G.S.P: "This war makes higher demands on courage and discipline than any war of which I have known. But, when you see men who have demonstrated discipline and courage, killed and wounded, it naturally raises a lump in your throat and sometimes produces a tear in your eye."

Again Mr. Suresh is presenting same arguments, whicha have no logic and has been rejected by whole of world. WHAT ABT INDIANS WHO ORGANIZED AND FUNDED LTTE IN SRILANKA and that insurgency resulted in the murder of their own prime minsiter Rajev Ghandi. Now indians are violating human rights by killing innocent naxals and moists who need freedom from india. World shd come forward to help naxals for their freedom fight along with kashmiris.

And whenever these blackhindooindians refute by saying that Pakistan army is killing innocent people in NWFP and Balochistan I become so enraged that I feel like doing something but since I am so peaceful and non violent and Allah(SWA) stops me I don't do anything.

Can you believe it terrorists of NWFP and Balochistan are innocents. Whole world knows these misguided people are TERRORISTS.

Moral : Pakistani rebels are terrorists and Indian rebels are innocent people

And don't forget to read my friend Orange's blog : lalqila.wordpress.com