One, the "Serve the Empire" thing is a bit much, I would hope you really do not feel that way. Second, you are not entitled to a College Education by virture of your birth, please show me where in our Laws you should be just given something for doing nothing? So, on top of health care, now ople will want free college as well just for being born as an entitlement? When will this sense of entitlement stop? The Military is full people who are doing something more than just "paying their taxes" and hence deserve a little more than the person who thinks that they should not have to do anything and just be given a free College Education by the virtue of being alive.

But Eric, I'd hope you think about the socialist nature of the US military and the Iraq project. Are Iraqis entitled to all the freebies? We did destroy their infrastructure, so there is a moral argument. But don't kid yourself, you are not working for a laissez faire system. So knock off the pull yourself up by the bootstraps rhetoric; that America is gone, destroyed. Conservative economists such as Peter Schiff have argued that entitlements, including but not limited to the GI bill, are responsible for the ongoing inflation in college education. The old idea of working your way through college with summer jobs is gone thanks to semi-socialist/corporatist boondoggles.

People are entitled to some return on their taxes, unless you think that most American citizens are serfs whose raison d'etre should be to work to fund the US military. "Just paying their taxes", contemptuous of civilians much? And yes, what else do you call our overseas project? Give me a word to call it besides empire. While you are at it, read some James Madison or John Adams on the topic of war and professional armies.

You never answered the original point, though. Do you think military wives are entitled to college educations?

First, no, I do not think you are entitled to more of a return than you already get on your taxes, you already get-Public Education 1-12 and K-12 in many states, Police, Fire, Infrastructure, Gov't FundedR&D, etc...
Second, don't kid yourself, most economists think the Gov't Student Loan Program for Civilians is the biggest reason that tuition is increasing at colleges, nothing to do with the GI Bill.
Thrid, Empire? Really? Are we taking tribute from anyone? I know we pay for our bases, overpay actually, and last I checked we are not making anyone become a new US Territory, so how are we an empire again? If we are, then we are the kindest one I have seen in History.
Fourth, money spent on the military is about 6% of our GDP, not even close to entitlement and debt spending and the combined cost of the wars, DoD spending and things to do with defese are currently at about 21% of the Federal Budget, it will fall back down to about 5-10% of total budget when we are out of the conflicts, entitlement and debt are over 60% and going to climb higher with health care and predicted to go to 80% by 2020, this was before the Health Care Bill.
Lastly, while I am not a fan of the way the Iraq was has been handled, I do not look at it as freebies for the people, we screwed it up and broke and now we have to fix it. The pull yourself up by your bootstraps mentality is only going to die if people continue to think that the gov't "owes" them something.
As for if I think it is a good deal to do this for the wives? Speaking in strict economic terms, I do not know to be honest, if it keeps people in the service longer and is hence cheaper than losing that corporate knowledge and having to re-train someone as well, then yes but I do not know the cost benefit analysis. Emotionally I think it is a good deal and agree with it, the troops are stretched pretty thin and the divorce rates are horrible, this can cause problems down range for guys, so off the cuff yes, I agree with it and let us not forget, anyone can join the military so if you want those benefits you feel so entitiled to what is stopping you from joining? What is more egalitarian than the service?

But, the return of services for our taxes is decreasing and will decrease. The services you mentioned are largely state funded, not feds. True, compared to entitlements such as medicare/social security, which contribute to medical inflation, the DOD outlay is much smaller. And the Wall Street bailout also added to non-military waste. But just because the government wastes a lot of money on those entitlements doesn't mean what it spends on its overseas bases should be justified. In regards to Iraq, I would agree that the Iraqis are owed something, but just as with Wall Street bailout, profit has been privatized (Haliburton, KBR) but costs have been made public. "We" all didn't benefit from the war equally, but "we" will all pay for it. And I am not arguing that soldiers benefited from the war, btw. This is how empires have worked in the past- relatively small numbers of elites and merchant classes, who feed off of government outlaw, benefit tremendously. The populations of the central provinces increasingly face debt and poverty while populations beyond the frontier face naked aggression or co-opted elites.

Regarding the GI bill, I said it was not alone. You are correct, loans are a major part of the problem, as are parasitic college administrations; how many deans are needed? But the idea of college as a semi-right for everyone really began in the post WW2 era with the GI bill. It also began the process by which it becomes increasingly necessary to have a college degree to many kinds of work.

A longtime ago, I was in the AF, so I've sort of been there; not really, though. And I recall being a kid and noticing the way things work. Being driven down to MEPS, I noticed that all the van drivers were retired military, working for a private company. At the time I felt vaguely uneasy about it, but I didn't quite understand how the marriage of tax-funded private enterprises and cronyism was basically wrong. Finally, you can't compare private enterprise/corporate benefits and government work/perks; the first is theoretically voluntary while the later is based on taxes, which in turn are based on unspoken coercion.

I can see how someone would think-"Is this really a military need?" You make a good point. The service is doing what it can for retention of it's troops and this was one more idea they came up with, I tend to agree with a previous post about a "happy wife", that equals a happy trooper. The divorce rate in the Military is through the roof and this was one more thing to maybe keep the guys happy when they are on a 6 month to 18 month deployment. Like another poster said, they did not have the money in the budget and obviously did not think it through in funding or about just pulling the rug out. I also think that due to the economy the Army at least will no longer have any problems recruiting so that this, like many benefits, will go by the wayside in a year or so no matter what, the Navy had been not having problems for years as far as recruiting and is even going back as far as 20 years to boot guys out or have them retire if they have more than one Alcohol Related Incident (ARI), you will see a lot of changes in shiny toys offered in the next few years, most will go away I think, SRBs are already down for Army SF even.

The deeper question is why the military continues to provide unnecessary in-kind services that could easily be monetized.

Health care, groceries and shopping, gas stations and Burger Kings, housing, welfare/rec, as well as peripheral support mechanisms like this one. While some level of direct support is needed for military necessities, the rest of the military welfare state is an anachronism. Monetize these non-essential support services and put the value into the pay envelops of the serving members.

McChrystal is doing this in Afghanistan - we should be doing likewise stateside. Put the cost of this tuition assistance into the paychecks of those serving and let them decide how to spend it.

Well Otter, if they'd wanted you to have a wife/husband, they'd have sent you down to supply to draw one - just kidding (or am I?). : )

I didn't have any truck with the MyCAA when I heard about it last year; however I sensed a possible lopsided ratio of officer's "ladies" to enlisted wives that would access it, especially those without small children (I believe it covers trade schools as well?).

I don't begrudge any unformed married individual's spouse having access to such a program, only felt the money should have been spent across the board for some common denominator all urgently identify with and could benefit as a whole with.

Be that as it may, this was handled inappropriately - as the Duck alluded: you don't start something and all of sudden stop it. It sends bad signals, and creates demoralization in what is already a historically small community.

RD, is right. As much as I enjoy having the kids take us to the NEX on North Island and the Commissary in San Diego so that we can fill up the rear of the SUV with all sorts of goodies I think they should just take all those freebies and put them in the paycheck and let the sailor’s and Marines chose how to spend the money. In fact my wife tells me that that the prices are really no better than what you would find at Costco and gas is actually more expensive than here in Tucson.

Besides the above what the DOD might consider doing is taking some of these dollars and investing them in TRICOR to make it more attractive to doctors and convenient for family members. No small numbers of physicians in the San Diego area just don’t want to deal with it.

In the above I meant TRICARE. TRICOR is what I take every morning with breakfast to keep the triglycerides nicely under control. :-)

A lot of the stuff pays for itself-The MWR is funded by money you spend at the exchange, the BKs and McD's pay to be on base, they gyms are needed for readiness and even a lot of that stuff is paid for via MWR, etc...the only huge benefits that are funded are Health Care, DoD Schools (usually some of the best in the System) and Grocery Stores. They have taken some of that and put it into cash, it is why we have TriCare now instead of Free Medical Care and why when we retire we go on TriCare too and then when we get old we go to Medicare. It is not the "Company Town" anymore and you will see a lot of these bells and whistles come and go as recruitment goes up or down.

Ducky and you are both right about the funding and how scewed up the planning obviously was for this, I agree on that. As for being issued a wife, not in my job, I would just be asking for a divorce, we are at about 90% as it is, I would like to keep what little I have of my retirement, thank you very much ;)

Available to only one-third of those eligible, military housing (and its gas stations, grocery stores, shopping malls, and food courts) is the very picture of a company town! Total contribution to readiness? Zero. Military welfare ... treasured by those who so decry welfare. One wishes those serving had a sense of irony.

Guess where some of the other funding for the MWR activity comes from Otter? Don't know do you - ok, I'll tell you. All those fortitures at officer hours/captain's mast (NJP) that's where the loot goes. Let the wheels of justice spin - march the guilty bastard in! : )

Incidentally, PX's/BX's have a surcharge on the merchandise/commodities to pay for overhead, and in addition, are pro-rated for the average pay grade of the region/area you find yourself in.

The Malls, Gas Stations, etc...all pay to be on post or are part of the exchange system that pays for itself, not good examples, the only benefit the guys get from it on base are tax free, that is it, heck, you can find cheaper gas on town but a share of the profits those companies make go to the MWR, again not a good argument. The Housing on post is actually needed in some areas in others it is not and that is why the give you a Housing Allowance, if they did not, the pay itself would require them to house everyone on base! Really, the housing is not a good argument, umm...where would you propose the people stay in the military if they did not house them or roll money into their pay so they could live off base?

I did not know that about the NJP! lol, well, waste not, want not ;)
As for the Exchange system, you can actually find cheaper stuff at Wall Mart for a lot of things, the reason people stay with the exchange is that the profits go to MWR, most do it out of loyalty to the idea and the cost is not that much. As for the pro-rate, private companies also pro-rate things via region too.

Question-where did you see that they pro-rate things at the exchange via pay grade? I know they do it via region due for a cost of living adjustment but never heard or read about anything to do with pay grade? Are you sure they still do that?

Far the most lamentable problem from these company towns is the isolation of the military members and their families from the people they serve. The absence of a draft keeps the hoi polloi out of the military and the military welfare system keeps the military away from the rabble in the streets. Great recipe for divergent cultures and the separation of the military from the nation. Next step will be a purely mercenary force. Oh wait - we have the AVF.

The days of the guys living in isolation are kind of over, the real junior guys stay on base due to not being able to afford housing but most folks live off base. It was one of the reasons that most people get approved for BHA as soon as they make E5 or above, to better integrate with the community, even much of the military housing is open to the towns they are in. Military Communities are actually more integrated than any other and a great deal of people who are civilians in these "Company Towns" as you call them are either retired military, military dependents or work for the military. Norfolk alone has over 60k Military Personnel in the area, they do not all live on base, I assure you of that.

Otter, you are a lot of trouble. : )

I contacted a friend of mine that know of such matters: commissaries sell consumables at cost with only an added small sur-charge for operatons. The PX system is by profit with no sur-charge on goods or DoD subsidy save for overseas shipment costs. He also tells me you are correct that PX's are no longer priced by the average pay grade by location, though various AAFESs/PX's have different pricing and will match the lower sell if challenged, and regularly survey their area of operations for competiveness with outside retailers and will also match pricing if challanged with certain exceptions.

...why can't the service people rely on the local economy to provide the goods and services required by them and their families?

Why provide in-kind when in-cash would seem more liberating for the service individuals and would get the government out of the situation of competing with the private sector? The management overburden of providing welfare services to military members weighs on military mission. McChrystal says so in Afghanistan and I say so everywhere.

As to the level of societal integration, one whose entire adult experience has been military is poorly placed to judge that. My direct observations from both sides says that the civilian population and the military population are as two tribes on different ice floes, moving generally the same way but with distinct eddies and patterns that keep them as culturally separate as they are physically in my metaphor. Ignorance has a compound quality: sometimes you don't know you don't know something.

I work pro bono for a large number of local and regional charitable non-profits (in strategic planning). I'd be a bit more inclined to accept a contention that "Military Communities are actually more integrated than any other" were I ever to run into any of these 'well integrated' individuals active in the community life outside the gate. Instead they are insular, isolated, and not part of the richness of the society around them. They aren't there. They don't take part. By choice and through the action of their military welfare system, it's not their community.

And part of this is result of the Soldiers and Sailors Civil Relief Act (as amended to Servicemembers Civil Relief Act of 2003). Under this misguided law, service members and their families can vote elsewhere and are exempted from local taxes. Which is to say, they've no skin in the game locally. Got problems out in town? We don't care.

SCRA provides protections to Reserve and Guard members in employment and allows servicemembers to break a lease if officially transferred. These are good provisions. But the Act's isolating effects in the area of taxes and voting are pernicious and should be repealed.

Get some skin in the game.

I really do not know what you are talking about, I can tell you that in Norfolk, the whole area is swamped with bases and the large majority live off base and are either in apartments or houses. I also see that in Ft. Bragg (although I am not sure why you would live off base there ;) ), Ft. Sam, San Diego, and a few other places. I know of very few people past the rank of E4 who live on base and while a few people live in housing it is not a common practice. Integration? The areas around military bases are cited as being the most race integrated of all. As for the culture, the Military has to remain a different culture, it cannot and should not be like the regular civilian culture and to think it can be does not make sense, one is martial the other is not...the martial would not work if it was to civilian like and I have seen the business model for leadership doa lot of damage and the civilian model would not be worth it to defend if it was a Spartan like Martial State, so not sure they should be like this "rich" culture you talk about.

...they won their war. How you doin'?

Well, we are doing pretty good last time I checked, the JO and NCO Corps tends to save us from the incredible ineptitude of many of our Senior O's but alas, far to many of them that still make the terrible strategic choices. The reason why we did so well in WWII was because we had a better Senior Officer Corps (06 and up)-inept ones got fired, they seemed to be more about the job, training for actual war rather than PC silliness, more than I can say for the majority of the last 40 years of Officers, outside of the USMC that is. Your "Draft" Military, how did they do in Vietnam again? Let me see, won all the battles but yet unable to win on the strategic front, hmmm....I wonder if they had the problem of career oreinted officers who are brave after they get the retirement but never resigned in protest or had the courage to confront in private the civilian leadership over the conduct of the war but went on about it in their "memoirs" about how brave they were? Yeah, we still have lots of Senior Officers like that, this much I assure you of. I can also safely bet that we will have many "hero's" memoirs about Flags who will talk of how wrong it was under Bush, then Obama and whoever is next as well, but yet not a one who was willing to resign in protest ;)

Cmeryergo,
Please tell me of any civilian job that requires you to be placed under a different set of laws like the UCMJ for example? Please tell me any civilian job that can have you work 365 days without any time off if needed? Please tell me any civilian job that cannot pay you overtime/comp time as a worker? Please tell me what your average work week is for hours, a slow one for me is 60+, when doing a train up it goes to 80+, when deployed, it depends on where I am at but right now it is about 70+ and if we were in combat a lot more, often up to 100+ and sleep is pretty hard to come by at times. Oh, another point, please tell me a job that requires you to do what we do as far as combat? Also, most people join for one hitch, to get to a similar pay level in the Civilian Sector it would take about half as long and our retirment is based off of our base pay, as an E-9 for example you would only get about 32k a year, not much and usually most people do not make that rank, so lets say you make E-7, a reasonable goal, your retirement falls to about 24k. Not much to live on, so they will need a second career. You often make remarks in our past posts that our troops are way overpaid and get far to many benefits, but what would you have the Military do? The troops are already working at just above minimum wage when you do the hours, E-1 to E-9 are not paid in large amounts of cash that I know about, so please tell me what you would think is fair?

when they join and without any skills, and must be trained inhouse on the employer's tab. Yes, the pay is about fair, that is unless you believe in entitlements. Honestly, what do you think our raison d'etre is as Americans? To fund the machine? If this is so then the whole exercise of the Revolution was just a waste of effort and all we managed to do was to trade one set of masters and their soldiers for another.

CMEYERGO, you have no clue what you are talking about to put it nicely. I assure you that service in the Navy and Marines is not a 9 to 5 job particularly for senior petty officers, NCO’s and field grade officers. I am amazed that you would even say something like that in comparing the hours in the civilian world with those of the armed forces.

Umm...not sure what companies you have ever worked for but I have yet to know of any place that does not put you through a training system and either pay you at a lower wage until you are up to snuff or pay you at full wage either way. Even McD's does that.
As for funding the soldiers and elites? Umm...people who are in the Military make up less than 1% of the population and the numbers spent on DoD are pretty small in comparison to other "items" in the budget.

those other entitlements are basically political gifts to keep voters. It's a lovely little neo-feudal system. Actually, with my work, I had education before the job, so I came skilled as it were.

I guess my opinion is slightly skewed on the idea of the military as socialism. Where I grew up, in the rural South, lots of my relatives and friends joined up because they basically had nothing else to do. And most of the guys I was with as a kid weren't turning down high-paying jobs to go serve.

I think you are right, the Military is Socialist, it is that way thought due to it's very nature. The people who join tend to do it out of a combination of reasons-adventure, patriotism, direction, tradition, etc...usually it seems to be a mix of those things. I think now, in these times, you will see more join for those reasons along with economics and education being a more common theme, especially in the Army who for the last two years has finally not had a problem with recruiting. I know they used to say that education was a big reason for joining in the past but since so few actually used those GI Benefits I am not sure I buy it.

lol, that site is a joke, go look at the actual pay rates if you are going to do that kind of stuff. I am an E7 with 18+ years and I, unlike 90% of the military, get 4 special pays and only make about 72k with housing, food, etc...an E9 does not make over 100k unless you toss in SRBs for Select Ratings or MOSs. I am not sure what you are thinking constitutes 100k? If you include health care, then I would add the coverage of whatever private company you work for into your total as well.
The UCMJ is alot different than any civilian law, your argument on that is more than a bit weak.
Some GIs work overtime? When exactly were you in the military? 1970? Come on, you cannot be serious. The bitterness you sound off with all the time about the military pay sounds a lot like sour grapes, did you get passed over? Not get a GS job when you got out? This type of silly venom has to come from some spot in your life because a link to someone carping about military pay that is not even right says a lot about motivation.

lmao, I like the one about worktime on the internet, mea culpa brother, if I had something better to do in my freetime I would, we are prisoners in guilded cages over here right now, not much to do but go on the net-no booze, no girls, no movie theater, no anything. We train or train them and that is it, so I take my pleasure in what little outlets I have...sigh, whiskey will take me away soon enough though...:)

You really don't deserve such pay if you insist on making an ass out of yourself. I posted a link to the facts, linked directly to the Pentagon's wage calculator. You ignored that, so I suggested that you learn to read, and read that link. Your refused, and now you earn more than Americans with MBAs and still complain about your "low pay" I suggest you try the private sector. I know many private sector vets who have businesses and have learned to NEVER hired a retired military man. They are known as very lazy, want all kinds of days off, like federal holidays, and complain, complain and complain. That's why they end up at the VFW drinking.

I know this shocks active duty types, and it would have shocked me as a young and dumb Marine. But as MGen Smedley Butler once wrote, people in the military haven't a clue about the world, they just do what they are told and never learn to think. So I suggest you read and learn about military pay, and then apologize. Yes, I know that career military people never admit they are wrong, it is not accepted in the culture.

Nice try,
So, your saying someone with an MBA and 18 years of time is only earning 72K? Brother, you live in a fantasy world! I was in the civilian side for a while, earned double what I do now and that does not include health care rolled in, that would up my money even more as well as a 401(K), so again, you live in a angry fantasy world. I got recalled and you know what, the guys I work with are more dedicated and work harder than anyone I saw on the civilian side and as for complaints and whines? lmao, you are either clueless or not looking at reality-all I heard from people who were in the company I was at was whining "too long hours", "not a big enough bonus", etc....As for lazy? Hmm....I know many, many. many place that hire only military vets since they actually show up on time, etc..
Brother, I do not know what happened to you in your time, maybe you were in during the 70's, that would explain a lot. Maybe you were a support guy under PX Kelly's old Marines ;), that would also explain a lot. Whatever it is that causes you to spew the venom that you do has to come from some personal slight that you felt, whatever it was, deal with it man.
As for the calculator, you know they include a lot of stuff in there that is not accurate and is merely a recruiting angle right? It is not fibbing exactly but a lot of stuff rolled in like time in service, job, special pays, etc...are not for everyone. If you want to do a more accurate assessment, I suggest you add up a base salary for single E3, then even add his health care in and heck, throw in BEQ/BHA and you will come up with a very different number. Good luck, I do not expect an apology from you, fanatics usually are unable to think clearly so I can only hope you won't spout nonsense again. Cheers! :)

The bit about just follow orders, can't think (I have a BS and 12 Credits towards a MA) etc...umm...really, when were you in? I am curious, because that is not the military I have seen, except maybe in very junior guys, so really curious as to what you base that on outside of your own time in service and what really caused you all this personal animosity towards the Military?

That link I posted includes comparisons to pay scales from the Pentagon's wage calculator and the Fed govts BLS. If you care to learn something, read that information. In short, GIs earn 2-3 times more than comparable Americans. I agree that some work too many hours, and they deserve extra pay, so the system needs changes. But many work less and are far overpaid.

If you care to spread lies and complain that you need a bigger govt check, I am wasting my time. The Navy may have recalled you for temp duty, but it seems you enjoy working so much at "half pay" with ample time to surf the net that you decided to stay in and "sacrifice."

You kill me! You blow up numbers to suit your argument, you complain of guys with decades of service who you think still get paid enough, do not answer questions asked but then never stop spreading hyperbole and silliness? Simple Math by adding the Housing and Pay for E1 up disputes your numbers, the calculator rolls in a lot more than that and does an average compared, it is a recruiting and retention gimmick, nothing more and like stats if you check deep enough they are off. Also, I never said that we should get paid more just that we do not get pain to much, but you keep not checking things that do not fit your premise, I am sure it helps you ;)
As for why I stayed on, buddy, people like you would never understand, it is all about the dollar for you, not for me. Cheers :)

Sorry, should have said get paid too much, not enough as far as your view. Enjoy! ;)