Openly gay soldiers and sailors: The view from a Navy submarine

Managed to equate euqal rights for women with this and correlate segregation with both? lol So, somehow if someone dis-agree with one they must be against all? Right? lol
Look, I am for lifting the DADT too but to compare it with segregation or to equate women with any of the two is weak sauce at best. The DADT is no big deal, you are right but your views are as narrow as the ones you attempt to rail against all the time.

Yeah, your right, it's that silly line about 'all created equal' that led to the Revolution that led to the Constitution that led to a steady pounding back of prejudice and unequal treatment. Shame on those Founding Fathers - what were they thinking of? Freedom?

So, if someone thinks women should not be allowed to be in combat on the ground then they are against gays or intergration in your eyes? lmao Wow, fill me in on how that comes to be?! So, even though I support the lifting of DADT but am against women in combat there is no way that I can hold two different opinions and that they are not possible to have? Again, the 60's are over, not sure if you have left your home since then but things have changed a lot, not a lot of problems with integration, they ended that in the late 40's, you know that right? Homosexuals have been pretty open in a lot of ways, we are in a hot war now, etc.. I know the internet lets you stay couped up but come on, get out, enjoy yourself ;)
Really Ducky, As Always you make half assed connections and implications that do not really go with the topic but it is cute to watch you try to knit things together the way you do, you must have been hell during the Cold War Ducky, I bet no sub under the sun had brass as shiny as yours did. Cheers! ;)

Bite me.

I imagine you would taste like leather if I did that ;) Cheers Ducky! Polish those pipes buddy!

COBs no more 'run the boats' than gunnies run the Army (actually, it's hard to find anyone who'll cop to that these days...). And for the record, torpedoes come out of both end of the tube. That's why it has both breech and muzzle doors. To the rest, bite me.

Ducky, I know you were an O with VERY narrow views of how things are, should be run and your view of NCOs becomes more and more apparent but two things-
One, the Services only survive now due to competent NCOs', we are wear the Brits were a long time ago, a Political-Gentleman Officer Corps with no real leadership at the top and a professional NCO corps holding things together.
Two, Gunnies are not in the Army, as a Navy guy you should at least know that Ducky. I know, I know, we are plebs to be ruled by the Patricians but try to know the names and proper use of the "caste" system you dislike so much ;)

As a former chief petty officer I don't have much need for some boot telling me how to suck eggs.

Then you should know for sure what a gunnie does and who keeps the Navy going, it's not the 60's anymore Ducky ;)

Navy CPO, LDO CWO, what's the difference? They're all bullspitting E-7s with club cards!

Use your words man, use your words. Was an NCO mean to you? So much anger in a JO, so much anger. You ok? Need a hug? Huh? They have people for you to talk to, I am sure they can help. ;)

First things first: I'm a P.F.C., Proud Freaking Civilian, not a junior officer, and I'm not sporting wood for NCOs! However, I do have a strict zero tolerance policy against L.I.F.E.R.S., Lazy Inefficient F**ckers Expecting Retirement Soon. If the shoe fits, that's your problem, not mine. FF.

You can tell you are not angry and that you are very rational ;) So, if someone makes a career of the Military you do not like them and have zero tolerance? Did you get kicked out or get a an RE-R4 Code? You ok? The VA taking care of your issues? Hmmm..F.F. Whatever does that mean? lol

I don't know exactly what the term "military career" means is in lifer-speak, but to us normal people with an IQ above their shoe size, it's an oxymoron!

Life was tough, you got out (did you serve?) and are working a job that obviously involves real brain power judging by your posts ;) I somehow doubt you did much while you were in as well, not enough knowledge or insight in your posts that would denote that you had a lot of operational time or time deployed.

Ask some L.I.F.E.R field grade officer or SSNCO what time it is, and he or she will wrote a ten page "position paper" --with footnotes-- on who makes the best wrist watch! The military briefing officer tactic of,” baffle them with bullspit and dazzle them with brilliance" is a staple of far too many posts! Try getting right to the point in thirty words or less.

Groundpounder all you do is rant and rave, you offer nothing as far as insight, time spent in the field, tactics, thoughts, etc..NOTHING. Your posts are like reading the rants of a SPED kid on AHDH meds attempting to act informed, amusing to watch but sad in the end ;)

First off, it’s hard to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent! Secondly, I bring something to the table that is sorely missing: Brutal honesty! And unlike the typical pontificating bullspit merchants, who post mindless drivel in cyber space and possess gonads the size of miniature ball bearings, I've got a set of balls that required a Marine Corps Gunnery Sergeant to follow me around with a wheel barrow to carry them! Sport, I may be wrong, but you strike me as a paper pusher who would crap their pants if they ever heard the command: Fix bayonets! Oh, by the way, attacking the messenger because you can't handle the truth, is passé. FF.

Groundpounder, all you do is shout insults in all of your posts, you give no insight from what I am sure is a "Vaunted" career in the field. To be frank or say it with ballz ;) You were more than likely a one tour chump, who went in on the start of the war and didn't see much but will go on all day about all he is done, ie; not much. What post did you give ideas on? What post did you give insight into from your time in except some insults at NCOs and O's and of course the Navy? lol Dude, lastly, "fixing bayonets" is about as smart as "hey, diddle, diddle, straight up the middle", which tells me you have not done much with regards to OEF at the very least. I saw your cats at OIF, liked them a lot, reminded me of Rangers with crappy kit but dude, I somehow doubt you are one of those guys. You get back to me when you find that mind to arm yourself with skippy, then we will talk and I will even be nice ;)

1. Boasts about having tea and crumpets with his "Mates" from the 22ND Regiment, but thinks that Upper Hereford is a small town in Maryland.
2. Alludes to being a member of an "elite secret unit that specializes in off-the-books ops, but he’s not familiar with the term, “black bag,”
3. Brags about being at the very tip of the spear in both O.E.F. and O.I.F., but wears the QMC shield of shame on his collar.
4. Talks about how wind, elevation and temperature affect the trajectory of round, but doesn’t know the caliber of a standard N.A.T.O round.
5. Makes land navigation sound like a walk in the park, but is clueless when it comes to shooting a back azimuth with a compass.
And now I'll close with this insightful little nugget of wisdom that succinctly sums up the ongoing star cluster f**k: The unwilling led by the incompetent to do the unnecessary!

You form an opinion on the basis of a science fiction movie? You're kidding right?

"They do so professionally and don't seem uncomfortable in the least and even goof around like men in an infantry unit would do."

I guess that means they were good at acting. Which is what they were paid to do, but it has nothing to do with reality. Get real.

As for DODT I could care less as long as they behave professionally and keep their private business private. The problem is, too many don't. Once they start spending too much time hanging out in the showers then professionalism is gone and they are imposing on my rights. If you think that doesn't happen then you are severely deluded.

Any professionalim or lack thereof can and will be easily handled through the use of the UCMJ. If you think commanders will be hesitent to use the UCMJ to fix problems and punish offenders due to their sexual preference and politics then you had better think again.

Logical thinking like that will get you a direct commission in the Navy's Corps of Space Cadets at Newport, R.I.!

30 years in the military tells me otherwise. The UCMJ is fine for clear cut violations without a political component, but that's about it.

Case in point is the female that I was deployed with who we nicknamed "The Black Widow" because she liked to lead guys on, and then when they made a move she turned them in for harassment. Those guys were disciplined. She went on to have a series of "relationships" with numerous soldiers in the AOR. She even got caught having sex in the tent she shared with 9 others. Was she disciplined? No. Eventually she got pregnant and was sent home with her reputation intact. She probably told her hubby it was divine intervention and the dumb ass probably believed her. Why wasn't she disciplined? Because the leadership has determined that women in the military and in combat zones is a great success and Commanders aren't going to rock the boat. This is why you hear the leadership talking in the media about what a great success it's been, but when you go look at the statistics on females who get pregnant while deployed there is a disconnect.

Same story with the gay guy on my sub who liked to hang out in the showers. This was long before DODT. Everyone knew he was gay. Everyone knew he was hanging out in the showers. Was anything done about it? No.

The fact is Commanders don't want to have to deal with these kinds of messy issues. So they don't.

Personally, I believe gays and women should serve. Women should be allowed to serve on submarines and in combat roles. But lets not sugar coat the problems it causes.

Pointing at the UCMJ and saying it will enforce professionalism indicates a lack of familiarity with the facts.

And that's exactly why I want all openly homosexual sailors to be allowed serve in today's Navy!

Here I was talking earlier about the great JOs and you come out with a comment like that? lol
Yeah, women and men sharing a shower and NO sexuality at all..rightttttttttttt....Ugh, I guess there is alway the exception to the rule. Why, that has proven itself so true already in the military, right? lol
Go read the book, nothing like the movie and it was written by a former Admiral decades ago and actually predicted some stuff we will see now, like exo-skeleton suits, etc..oh, but no chicks were in the infantry ;)
DADT is and will be no big deal, glad it will be gone but these crazy comparisons to women being integrated into the military have got to stop! lol

Wow a lack of familiarity with the facts huh? How about you read the UCMJ and then tell me where it says weak commander shouldn't do their job. That was the problem in your unit, weak leadership. And if you have been in for 30 years then you may need to look into the mirror to find that weak leader. In my 20 years, since you seem to want to have a big D contest, I will say that strong leaders are the ones to ensure that the UCMJ is used appropriatly and not allow stupid stuff to get swept under the rug.
Thankfully your 30 years are at an end and I am still in the service to ensure good leadership is alive and well.

And that's the main "leadership lesson" this sailor can attribute to a 30 year sentence in the Navy!

Most people in the services will just suck it up and move on, there will be some problems at first and yes there will be some serious hiccups when some people come out of the closet, they will be the ones who will shock there friends because "no one knew", but for the most part a lot of the people who are gay are pretty obvious already so I do not think it will be that much of a shock to the system. I think where you will see a lot of problems is if the brass, like they tend to do, over compensate and gay becomes the new "protected class" where people start shouting discrimination or harassment for either trivial things or to pin the blame on others for why they are performing poorly. It happens all the time now, people will throw out the race card, the gender card, the "my superior is mean" card, etc...but I hope that does not happen. There are a ton of homosexuals in the Medical Corps alone and they seem to be going along pretty well and a lot are pretty obvious so I truly doubt that much will happen when the ban is lifted except some initial dis-comfort. I think it is has always been a bit of embarrassment that the law was on the books, never made sense to me to turn away someone who wants to serve when so many self-entitled kids and so called "elites" thumb there noses at service.

As for people with problems with it, they will have to suck it up till the end of there enlistment I imagine. They can always apply for an early discharge and cite those reasons you mentioned in your posts but I doubt it will be granted, if it is, I Imagine it would be with a low RE code since they cannot conform to current standards and rules.

If transgender folk try to use that as an excuse it will bring up the slippery slope argument and it will get shut down almost instantly. If the GLBT groups try to support it they will be shooting themselves in the foot, so I do not see that happening nor do I think it is something that could ever be good for discipline if it was. What would they do if they started to press to wear the women's uniform vs the men's? What about using the woman's head vs the men's? Women's PT standards vs the men's? Etc..etc..Just see this as non-starter and if someone did push for it they would be looked at like they had three heads.

Hi Eric, thanks for your comments. They were very infomative. Had a bit of trouble deciphering the portion on transgender individuals though. I don't want to infer but are you saying that the "gay lobby" would be shooting itself in the foot if it pushed for transgender inclusion when DADT ends? If so, can you elaborate why? Thanks.

I just think it would embrace a lot of peoples fears about the slippery slope mantra that many go to when talking about marriage, service, etc.. That is you allow homosexuals to marry then you have to let people who are bigamists to have multiple wives, etc..when does it stop? Then you have to let "anything" go. I don't buy into it and think homesexuals should be allowed to marry, if anything is going to keep the institution of marriage solid it is not fighting against homosexuals getting married it would be the lifting of no-fault divorce and getting counciling before you do get married. Anyway, I digress lol
If the GLBT lobbies, they exist as do many special interests lobbies, do advocate for that I think it would be counter-productive. I also do not think TG's are the same thing, if you want to dress like that on your own time, fine, but my concern would be what I mentioned above, that some TG's have even advocated, that they be treated like the gender they think they are not the gender they are.

I doubt any Senator would ever go as far as your McCain example, just not a smart move really and that person would soon find themselves out of office. I do think that it could be used as a way to hold up the dropping of DADT and I will not be shocked if many do that via editorials, public speeches, etc.. It won't do any good though, it is a done deal and has been coming for a while and I am glad for it.
The one thing that does irk me a bit is the fawning over Mullen and some others, they kept there mouths shut for decades about the policy but now that the political sun is shining for the removal of DADT he and many others come out for it? Hmm...I am always suspect of Flags as it is and I see no reason not to see it as him being a political player on this issue or thinking that is finally safe to voice his opinion on the subject which shows a lack of leadership courage on his part IMHO. You are supposed to be honest and open, behind closed doors, with your superiors and give them your real opinions then they make the final call and you carry on with that, even if you do not like it. I fear that he and many others do not always give there honest views at times out of concern for there careers over anything else. I am of course the eternal skeptic when it comes to Flags though, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
As for prejudicial reasons against TGs, there are legit concerns when many TGs and LGBT groups have advocated that they be treated as the gender they think they are and not the gender they are. Massachusetts has has a couple of cases with TGs wanting to use the womans room! So it is not an unrealistic scenario if anyone pushed for it. I think if you want to wear dresses off duty, hey, fine, whatever floats your boat, not sure I get it but as long as what you are doing not harming anyone else or hurting discipline and morale or screwing up your job performance than it is really none of my business. The problem rises when it does those things and many a TG have advocated to be treated as another gender and that is crazy, pure and simple.