Thursday, January 28, 2010 - 5:02 PM

Here is more from that terrific speech retired Army Col. Stuart Herrington gave on the disastrous recent history of American interrogation operations. The talk, given at Fort Leavenworth late last year, was sponsored by the CGSC Foundation, which plans to publish the speech in a book this spring about ethics and law in contemporary conflict. I am quoting from the speech with the CGSC Foundation's permission.
The U.S. military prison camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, was worse than a crime in his view, it was a blunder. "Guantanamo was the diametric opposite of how I would have set up a facility," said Herrington, a seasoned interrogator who advocates treating prisoners with respect and decency -- not only because it is the right thing to do, but because it is the most effective way to gather intelligence.
"Iraq was worse," he continued. He arrived there in December 2003 on an official trip to review U.S. military intelligence operations in the new war there. He was shocked by what he found. "I reported, in writing, that the Special Operations Task Force was brutalizing detainees at their Camp Nama facility before turning them in to the Baghdad Airport confinement facility." He was surprised to have his warning disregarded:
"I expected a major investigation of rogue activity, but a feeble attempt to investigate was quickly dropped. Investigations into Camp Nama were unwelcome, because, we know now, the excesses that I and others reported were sanctioned at very high levels of the U.S. government . . . .
He also inspected the Abu Ghraib prison and reported that it was a disastrous mess, "a squandered and lost opportunity." So it was no surprise, he said, a few months later when the news of the abuses broke, with "the sheer depravity of mistreatment, [and] the idea that American soldiers would descend to such depths of conduct," that the global media seized on it.
Found this in some old notes, from Alistar Horne's A Savage War of Peace, discussing torture's effect on intelligence:
“more often than not the collating services are overwhelmed by a mountain of false information extorted from victims desperate to save themselves further agony.”
A blunder is worse than a crime?
The great tragedy of Bush's interrogation regime is that he went to deep into the minor leagues for talent. CIA instead of FBI, a couple of tough guy psychologists instead of military interrogators.
Enhanced Interrogation Techniques: illegal andthey don't work. Brilliant.
Look forward to the incorporation of ethics....
in professional development across all professions from whatever source. A sort of celestial navigation for the soul.
They've been blathering about including ethics in B-school curricula since Milkin and the Drexel Burnham scandal of 20-some years ago. Don't hold your breath.
It is part of the Naval Academy's fund raising effort....
it is outsourced to an Alumni Foundation to support a Class 1A football program. If the "B" school sold "Ethics" as Navy has maybe it could have a better football product. Navy also used it to enhance their franchise in Gitmo and get more Armada funding.
and inhale deeply, is the prevailing model. If you're good enough, a la Bill Gates, you can buy forgiveness later.
Lawyers have an advantage over B-school grads, because their primary curriculum includes how not to get caught. Buy an endulgence from a Big Five, er Big Four accounting firm, and you can prove due diligence, or at least create reasonable doubt, argue that no one could have imagined...
Yeah, and that's the irony. Post Enron and the shrinking of the Big Five to the Big Four one would have thought that it might have served as an object lesson, not that there haven't been zillions before, but no. Same old thing. Will they get away with it indefinitely?
There's a thought that occurs to me now and then every time the whole interrogation/detainee abuse/torture subject comes up.
During the Vietnam period there was a nasty tone taken by some Americans toward those who evaded military service, especially toward men who went to great lengths to do so. The implication -- from time to time it was stated directly -- was that such people must be cowards.
This idea was always held in low regard by Americans opposed to the war in Vietnam, and eventually came to be dismissed by Americans generally. Yet it is obviously possible that one motivation for evading military service during wartime might be cowardice, raising the question whether someone who acted on this motivation was a good choice to exercise power later in life during a period of threat to the nation.
We know, of course, that former Vice President Cheney sought, and got, multiple draft deferments during the 1960s. We also know that he reacted in a manner strongly suggestive of panic after 9/11, sanctioning much abuse of detainees without any professional knowledge of what interrogation methods were effective. Cheney also spent a great deal of time in the months immediately after 9/11 in "undisclosed locations."
It is possible to read too much into a man's choices early in life, and just because Cheney's tenure in high office was a significant national misfortune does not necessarily mean that any of the disastrous policies he promoted were the product of a flaw in his character. Since lots of people, including the President Cheney served, exerted themselves to evade military service during the unpopular Vietnam war, lots of people are strongly motivated to discount this possibility. I wonder, though, whether it should not be more seriously considered.
It's a good point, but look at Clinton, did the same as Cheney, albeit in a differnent manner for avoiding Vietnam, but I would argue that his policies on torture would be much different, granted he did not face a 9/11 type attack, but his approach to terrorism (93 bombing, etc..) did not lead to torture.
I think, overall it is not a matter of how smart they are, or how much they love their country, but rather just a different world view on how to acheive similar ends.
Why would he be surprised at the lack of investigation? That's the real mystery to my mind. If he looked at the trials of American soldiers accused of war crimes for the past few decades he would have noticed that the military seems reluctant to prosecute it's own. As evidence I challenge people to find one soldier involved in the My Lai debacle who was given and served a serious sentence. Look to several of the trials in Iraq over abuse, murder, and rape and you see the same thing.
Iraq and Afghanistan so called "war crimes" have been over done if anything. Haditha? Via Eagle Scan that shows the guys were under fire they are all going to get off because guess what? The accusation was BS. Did they toss grenades into the building that they were being shot at from? Yes. Did they know that civilians were inside prior to that? No. The few real incidents that happened have been prosecuted over abuse, the few murders that actually took place have been pretty well dealt with and while some are on appeal I challenge you to show me someone who "got away with it". Are you going to bring up the National Guard folks at a certain infamous prison? hmmm...while what they did was wrong and stupid and cost a lot I have had worse hazings and those guys got jail time for it. The only person who got off light was the CO. Also, if you look at the cases of misconduct, it was almost always another troop that reported it up the CoC. There was a case in Afghanistan where a PID was made by a sniper and the HVT was shot and the General in charge tried to have the SF Operator up on charges! Joke. That same General is the one who kicked MARSOC out of Afghanistan for being to aggressive during an ambush (Jury is still out on that one). Look at the recent case of the 3 SEALs at Team 10 for example of going overboard on things. Most of the so called "Atrocities are BS with a never ending line of guys coming back and claiming them and then getting found to have not even been in a firefight never mind a witness to so called atrocities. Another big problem is that far to many people on the civilian side do not understand what is ok and not ok in combat. You can shoot a guy if he is wounded and he has not surrendered visibly, you can shoot a guy if he is going for a weapon, he does not have to have it in his hand, etc..etc..Go look up what a human can do even if he is wounded, there is a great case of a California Cop shooting a suspect 9x in the kill zone and the suspect still managed to stab and kill the cop before bleeding out, it is what a shooting drill is actually based off for the 21' rule of knife vs gun, and guess what, you can shoot a guy with a knife too. As for rapes, there have been very few and the one that made all the headlines has all of the guys in jail or on trial as is the unit that took a known insurgent out and who they executed, they are also in jail, It is easy for someone who does not really know how the brain and body function under stress, what the human body is capable of as far as damage it can take or the reaction vs action dynamic, nor who knows what it is like in a combat zone or what the laws of war really allow to play Monday Morning QB. Cops get less questioning than we do in shootings now and we do not get the same protections they do I might add but you keep thinking what you want, ignorance is bliss I am told.
Eric,
You are correct. No "War Crimes" in these wars.
Warmest Regards,
Sgt. Paul E. Cortez, Spc. James P. Barker, Pfc. Jesse V. Spielman, Pfc. Brian L. Howard, and Pfc. now Civ. Steven D. Green
Are you to lazy to read the whole post or take it in context? I never said there were no war crimes, just said that we have taken care of them and that they are few and far between, but you read or see what you want to "sodlier", warmest regards to your silly implication ;)
Green and his boys are exactly who I was talking about when I mentioned appeals and most are in prison, but you ignore those words too, it takes time to read the whole thing, I understand, really, I do ;)
FYI, Green is currently appealing his sentence and asking that he be turned over to a Court Martial and the his Federal Trial should be thrown out and given a new one under the UCMJ.
Eric, if Haditha was a righteous shoot by our ROE's
Eric, if Haditha was a righteous shoot by 2005 Rules of Engagement, then that's as troubling as indiscriminate clearing-by-grenade in civilian occupied houses, or even someone getting away with criminal war homicide.
The sergeant in command at knew that the IED that opened the action killed only mounted US combatants. The clearing operation that followed killed two dozen villagers, mainly women and children sheltering in their homes. As a counter-insurgency op, it was worse than if the patrol had simply secured a perimeter and waited for medevac. It was our Anbar command's willingness to justify this arithmetic that Ricks uses to typify officers failing in their mission, a war we were losing, in 'Gamble'.
But the Haditha facts go way beyond a bloody tragedy and command inattention, to false reporting and withholding evidence. The killing of civilians by grenade and rifle in the clearing ops was reported as collateral to the IED. Aerial footage of the IED scene was 'lost' and buried. Pages were removed from combat operations logs, not a small matter.
The photo record reportedly showed that four MAM passengers and a driver, pulled from a taxi while the perimeter was being set up, were killed at close range, in the open, prior to the clearing op. No arms were captured with these prisoners; it seems unlikely to me that an enemy fire team would drive unarmed into the angry patrol they or their compatriots had just bombed. Regardless, failing to secure the prisoners was a serious breach.
The defense account says that the patrol came under fire. All agree that houses were sequentially cleared, the occupants, killed or left for dead, until an officer arrived with the relief force and terminated offensive ops. If, as the evidence and conflicting testimony suggests, the clearing operation began with the commanding non-com's murder of unarmed prisoners in his care, then his account of the subsequent homicide of homeowners, women, and children have to be judged in that light.
You say that my upset with indiscriminate clearing operations like that at Haditha only shows my lack of awareness of the true nature and necessities of war. Fair enough, I'm no warrior. But I do think that If my comrades were killed and maimed by an unseen enemy, and the only blooded soldier in the unit said 'follow me, this is how we did it in Fallujah...', that I might cue up for some payback, to the detriment of my country and its reputation. I think that's the kind of war it was in Anbar, in late 2005.
Justice should be tempered by mercy for our enlisted soldiers. But we can't use that to negate facts pointing to the lack of mercy for the villagers of Haditha, and the downward trend of the war, under those rules of engagement.
Neither justice nor mercy nor a desire to win should blind us to how a soldiers drive for payback, whether trolling for mines, or in a notorious detention/interrogation prison under frequent mortar attack, can be part of a downward spiral toward mission failure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings
People seem to be forgetting a certain incident of rape reported as well. With fairly strong forensic evidence.
Who is forgetting anything? Who got away with anything?
You keep making the implication that people got away with something, now we are forgetting a rape? When did anyone say that no crimes happened? Are you talking about the rape and murder of the girl and her family? If so, that has already been discussed. Try reading the posts and read all of them, where did anyone say no crimes were committed? Where are your examples of people getting away with it? If you know of some other rape that happened that we do not know about or somehow may have been ignored, report it. Otherwise stop making the implication that troops are getting away with war crimes and attempting to use My Lai as evidence to support your accusations for these wars.
Citing WIkiepedia is hardly credible
The CID did an investigation already disputing many of the things you are talking about in Haditha, the stories about false reports are also in dispute, no Eagle Scan video footage "vanished", it showed that they were indeed getting fire from those houses. Yes, they cleared it and they did wind up killing civilians, that is a tragedy, but hardly a war crime. As for being Counter-COIN, this happened in Iraq and not during the "quiet times" we have here now. What if you or someone else was on patrol and they took fire from a tent, should they just take the fire and not return it? If you did return the fire and someone that was a civilian got shot, is it your fault or the fault of the insurgents? Also, there have been many documentaries done in the MSM about Haditha since it first came out, now that most of the evidence is out, the CID report is out, it pretty much cleared those Marines of any wrong doing excpet maybe being over aggressive. Oh, guess who was actually accused of "vanishing" the video at one time that showed the Marines coming under fire? It was the prosecution, it of course eventually turned up in discovery and no conspiracy was at fault but that coupled with the CID investigation, was a key element in clearing those guys. CID also did shooting tests to explain just the other way of what happened to those taxi passengers.
If you are going to go around and accuse those Marines of some kind of conspiracy, have your facts straight at least. Did civilians die? Yes. A tragedy as I said previously. Could it have been done better? Yes. Was it intentional? No.
McGirk, the Time Magazine reporter refused to testify at the hearings or for a news show done on the subject and had to retract a lot of statements, he also later wrote a glowing article about the Taliban and how they were not so different from you and I, (Could not make that up if I wanted to! lol) so be careful who you believe. Really, your post smacks of conspiracy theory rather than rational thought. Did you watch "The Battle for Haditha" too and made some judgements off it as well? This was not about payback, no conspiracy, etc..unless you think the CID was in on it too. I guess they must have been, since they are military right? Gosh knows they are so good at keeping there mouths shut when something happens, oh, that is right, the military is not good at that.
The one thing that happened after that was that the Marines were no longer allowed to clear with Grenades, a lesson unfortunately learned in blood but none the less it was hardly a war crime or payback as you imply.
I will tell you right now, if I am getting fired at from a hard building by multiple gunmen, guess what? I am not going to clear room to room with just my rifle, that is stupid and almost suicide if you do not have the guys to do it, you are welcome to "temper" yourself all you want if faced with the same situation, I will keep my life thanks. Room Clearance is a whole different ball game when you have people shooting at you, sorry if those guys chose to save there lives instead of calling in to the house and asking for a time out if there were any civilians inside, because, gosh, I am sure the insurgents inside would have let them out, I mean just because they advocate shooting from civilians houses, taking hostages, etc..doesn't mean we shouldn't try right?
In the end, it was a horrible tragedy but hardly a war crime, a conspiracy or payback.
Lastly, are SoldierDiary and Walking Wounded the same?
Are you using two different pseudonyms?
Look who is pitching conspiracy
I've only commented under one nom de plume Eric.
Your narrative seems to require a delayed-action multi-year conspiracy by the Corps and MNFI, to frame a squad leader and imprison his troops, while ruining officers up to brigade rank.
Not securing prisoners taken in the opening minutes of the action indicates the sergeant in command lost control of the situation, before the deadly clearing ops began. Assuming that the five unarmed men from the taxi were enemy combatants, keeping them alive for interrogation and identification would have been the best hope of rolling up the enemy IED network.
If, putting the best possible face on the action and reporting, the sergeant and leutenant were spinning the ops report to the major, and he to the colonel, then the general is blinded by his own men. A wartime chain of command has to be held to a higher standard than teenagers lying to their parents about what happened to dent the family car. If command is frequently and even willingly misinformed, then troops are misled.
Right or wrong, it's my war, my nephews and neighbors in harms way, my country's reputation. I have a big problem with the proposition that indiscriminate application of indirect fire in civilian housing, which is what pitching hand-bombs around corners into bedrooms amounts to, is not a problem that needs to be tracked and corrected. This wasn't a split-second decision at a checkpoint.
The legal drama and heartbreak of courts martial has been allowed to distract from the real issue. The larger issue is that patrolling to contact with mines, and the 2005 ROE thereby engaged in an urban setting, was integral to the negative arc the war had taken by Nov. 2005. I think Tom got the tone right in 'The Gamble', with regard to Haditha. I don't assume that I would respond differently than those marines, upon taking gruesome casualties to an unseen enemy.
lol, what are you talking about?
So, I ask if you are under two names and now I am tossing out a conspiracy?lol I asked because the other poster talked about not being a warrior which I had addressed to you. No worries though, I am sure you will blog about it at some point.
As to your points, one, you implied I said no war crimes, I see now that you have actually taken the time to go read the entire post, I am glad you did.
Next, what conspiracy are you talking about? Do you know how the UCMJ and Court System works? You do not need much to get someone to trial via Court Martial, it is not a conspiracy, it is the system and the way it works. lol, where did I imply a frame up? The whole thing got going because ONE reporter did a story on it and had to retract a lot of what he said in his original story. The public pressure came to load on the USMC and they reopened the case, it is pretty standard really, again, not a conspiracy or a frame up. Is that the way you view the world? lol Everything is either a conspiracy by someone or someone is laying out a conspiracy? You implied that there was lost video footage, false reports, etc..not me, I know that a lot of stuff that happens is almost always due to incompetence, bureaucracy and sometimes the ball just gets rolling and you cannot stop it till it stops on it's own. That is the real world.
Now, I will move onto your "tactics". You were not there but you are going to say that they should have secured the prisoners right away from the taxi? Ok. First you said they murdered them but now maybe you did some research and found that the CID/NCIS reports kind of showed that it possible that what the Marines said happened did happen, is that safe to assume? Sorry, Let's move onto your tactics. So, I have some guys at gunpoint I am about to check out and I start taking fire and you want me to put those guys on the ground, crawl over to them and tie-tie or handcuff them under fire in the open with no cover? Hmm.....I have to assume you are not in the combat arms after that tactic.
Now, for your blindsiding of the CoC, you might have a point there but I am not sure how blindsided the CoC was since they did in fact send reports up, that a reading of them after the CID/NCIS investigation (CID assisted in it and did a lot of the forensics) found that they are not false but rather what the Marines thought happened. Did they leave out some tidbits of info? I am sure they did. Is that necessarily there fault? No. Read up on what happens to a persons memory recall in the immediate hours after a shooting, why cops are supposed to be allowed 48 hours to cool off before writing a report on a shooting yet we have to write one right afterwards.
So, in your view, it is your war? I am fighting in it as are all of my buddies, we do not throw grenades indiscriminately around corners, they tend to bounce back or not go as far as you want them to when you do that but I am hardly going to go into a room and make sure it is clear of civilians before I do it, sorry, I like not getting shot.
The incident was not a watershed for why locals started turning against the US and CF, that was happening already. The insurgency got going because we did not have enough troops to lock it down, we de-batheified (is that spelled right?) the gov't and nickel and dimed the re-construction. It did give them a nice propaganda tool thanks to a media that went crazy with sensationalism first and then checked the facts later. PBS did a pretty good documentary on the case as did many other MSM outlets, much later after the incident though, by then it was to late. The media is famous for doing things like that, inflaming people then backing down, Newsweek's Quran story remind you of that?
Again, it was a tragedy, Infantry are not trained in Hostage Rescue Techniques of CQC and hence could not be expected to clear a house with a squad without the use of grenades. The ROEs at the time were a bit confusing to some and were cleared up afterwards by the Commandant. It was a tragic mistake but one the rests on the insurgents in the end for hiding in a place with civilians in it, the Marines are not at fault for that or the incident afterwards.
Tragedy? Yes. War Crime and Coverup? No.
I made a mistake, it was not you who implied that the guys at the Taxi were murdered, it was Walking Wounded, sorry about that, got you two mixed up for a minute. My mistake.
I respect the combat narrative
I respect (if true) the combat narrative that the Haditha marines 'patrolled to contact' as ordered, formed a perimeter to secure the wounded for evac, and then attacked into the sniper threat. It's also understandable that fighting men would take an after-action stance, to protect their force from REMFs and reporters prone to second guess life and death calls.
Pointing you back to my original comment, if the events at Haditha were the result of our men performing their mission, and then behaving within Nov. 2005 ROE, that is more problematic for American arms and aims in Iraq than a unit reacting in anger to a deadly insurgent provocation.
Marines and soldiers patrolled to contact every day in 2004-7. An IED command mine capable of destroying our vehicles was the usual way contact was initiated- at a time and place chosen by the enemy, not by civilians in the immediate vicinity. Given Rumsfeld's doctrine of 'attacking into the threat', we were easily drawn into urban combat in a mixed population- people that at best the enemy regarded as expendable, and at worst would be pulled off the fence into joining with the enemy in community defense against clearing ops by US forces. Enemy tactics anticipated and benefitted from our aggressive response. If civilians can't run or hide, some will conclude that fighting us is the only option.
In the case of Haditha, it appears that once the mine destroyed a vehicle and stopped the patrol, our force killed, tried to kill, or left for dead every Iraqi they encountered, until they were stopped by the relief commander. Months later, after reports of one-sided casualties in the clearing operation, it's not hard to see why higher command preferred criminal charges, saying 'This was an aberration, not the result and application of our tactics, doctrine and policy.'
And that's all I have to say about that.
The guys killed people they thought were a threat, the civilians inside the house were a tragic consequence of those insurgents hiding in there, the guys at the Taxi were well within ROEs if it went down the Marine said it did and forensic reports afterwards support that. A TTP of the insurgents was a VBIED or an Assault via a Car after an IED went off, so again, the Marines thought they were a threat and acted accordingly. What would you have had them do? Honestly, ask yourself that, what would you have done when you are getting fire from a house, just got an IED attack with a classic ambush piece set up with a vehicle and you do not know there are civilians inside? I will ask again, what if you were patrolling past a tent and started taking fire from the tent, would you just take the rounds or return fire? A lot of the posters on this seem to think these guys should just have taken the fire, it does not work that way and these guys were not cops and the people attacking them were not some street thugs.
This conversation started out as one person accusing the military of letting people off the hook and also an implication that crimes are widespread, another saying that I said there were no war crimes, I never said that and he was obviously to lazy to read my entire post to imply that. Then it got off on Haditha and a bit of accusation that there were cover ups, the guys murdered those people for payback, etc...even though now that the smoke has settled it turns out to be just a tragic event. In the end you have to look at the whole picture and as far as our troops, crimes have been few and far between for the hundreds of thousands of people who have rotated over there and those that did commit actual crimes have been taken up on charges and like usual it was another troop who reported the crimes up the CoC, not the press, not some NGO but another guy in the service. Point is that I am tired of people making sweeping accusations and not really doing any research about those accusations or even doing basic research for that matter. I am also tired of conspiracy theories and other BS that is usually in reality attributed to incompetence, bureaucracy or just simple politics of the snowball effect, ie; once it gets rolling it keeps getting bigger and bigger and no stopping it till it stops rolling. The Military has been very professional in almost a decade of combat and that is not always easy with the amount of deployments, type of warfare or the leadership we have had at times, so in short, if you or anyone is going to make sweeping accusations that our military continues to let people get away with rapes, murders and abuse, then be prepared to at least back it up and not with reports from almost 5 years ago or with innuendo. Are there crimes? Yes. Are they a major problem? No, they are few and far between and they almost always get exposed by our own guys, pretty good integrity as far as that goes if you ask me. So, if you or anyone else is going to Monday Morning QB, keep those things in mind and keep in mind that you were not there to make the judgement call on scene.
Dear Eric,
You lost us in chapter one of your book.
Regards,
Normal people not sitting in their underwear in their parents basement spending all day responding to blog posts
Why I get that you like to get on and spout nonsense, make silly arguments and do so without having the slightest idea of what you are talking about, etc..you are right, I do have time on my hands, currently deployed again to Iraq. Somehow I doubt that with all of your tactical knowledge you know what that would be like. We do not get to out much now and if I am not in a JOC I go online to pass the time, yes, I am bored out of my mind and you would be happy to know ROEs are VERY strict now and even a non-combat arms guy or wanna be blogger writing a "Tell All" Soldiers Diary could function here. I am sure you are busy giving tactical briefs to all of your buddies and telling them how as you worked in the galley (sorry, DFAC for you folks right?) you were also whisked away for nightly combat patrols. That stuff might float with people who do not know better but by your posts I can tell you are a non-qual and I hit a nerve, please feel free to going back to telling tall tales with all of your "knowledge" to the gullible and naive. You pseudonym alone tells a lot about you, sad. Why do you care if I am in my underwear by the way? Are you having dreams about me again? I want you to know that even though I am not that way I fully support the lifting of the DADT and hope that you will be able to join up one day or if you are already in that you will be able to come out of your cubicle and declare yourself open and be free from fear of prosecution. Maybe they will even let you go into the Combat Arms, who knows really, the limits are endless for someone with your knowledge!
PS-I never wear underwear, cultural thing, you wouldn't understand but do not get to excited ok :)
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