REMFs (IV): a Navy officer’s ancillary observation

Posted By Thomas E. Ricks Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 5:23 PM Share

I've been learning from this discussion of what constitutes a front-line soldier in our current wars.

Here's an observation in a different direction from my CNAS colleague Cmdr. Herb Carmen, a naval aviator who most recently commanded those high-morale video pioneers, the VAW-116 Sun Kings, aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln.

Looking at your post about the smackdown video today fits my own reflection. The real heart of the matter isn't whether someone is unworthy because they are a JAG officer or a combat support soldier or a "black shoe" or a Hawkeye pilot. And it's okay for anyone to identify with their micro-community and culture. After all, it's simply pride in one's service and experiences.
What I'm learning quickly, by working at CNAS and not being in a uniform, is that the guy with the beard or the intern may have just as an important perspective as the guy who just arrived from command. The most unassuming fellow passenger on the Metro might be a senior executive. The guy in cargo shorts I just shared a sea story with just might be a new Assistant Secretary at the Pentagon, or he might be the guy at the bike store who knows about the local trails.
It's not who says what, but what they say. And the problem with this video is that one guest attacks and the other counterattacks. At that point, the battle of ideas is over. So it's irrelevant that one guest is a POW and the other is a JAG officer. They've both lost me because they use their attacks on one another's service as an argument of ideas. I'm sorry, but I'd much rather have Andrew school me on Rupert Smith than have someone say I have nothing to add to the strategic dialogue in Afghanistan because I wear gold sleeves on my uniform.

(The "Andrew" here is Andrew Exum, better known as Abu Muqawama. Who you calling a mook?)

I agree with Herb's conclusion that in the TV debate, both sides failed in the war of ideas. But then, TV generally is not a medium for serious discussion. More importantly, I endorse his notion that it is substance, not appearances, that in the end are important. As General Al Gray used to say, "Don't look good -- be good."

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SULLY

6:35 PM ET

November 19, 2009

Like Tom said, "That's

Like Tom said, "That's entertainment!"

Speaking of entertainment, the Sun Kings rock! We need a new video! Skipper, pls get your VAW-116 brown shoe bubbas workin it!

SLINKYSIX

6:40 PM ET

November 19, 2009

Looks good = is good?

As with everything, there's a fine line. Sometimes, that intern bringing you coffee does have outstanding insight into the matter, and sometimes he's just a grad student bringing you coffee 'cause he's somebody's nephew. Sometimes, those back from theater are just egoists with diarrhea of the mouth, and sometimes they do know just what the f- they're talking about. So I guess the answer is to never write anyone off as being genius or an idiot, but to wait until they open their mouth and remove all doubt.

With regards to the "don't look good; be good," the Army has a fixation that if something looks good, it must therefore be good (as if there is some irrefutable correlation between the two), hence the fixation with looking "squared away." Not sure which side is right, though as a junior officer who has been yelled at on more than one occasion for having hair a millimeter too long, I think I side with GEN Gray.

TYRTAIOS

7:02 PM ET

November 19, 2009

Pappa Bear Al Gray

Actually what "Papa Bear" Gen. Gray was noted for, among many things, was ensuring every Marine was a rifleman first, regardless of MOS - something the Corps had gotten away from. In addition, he made it known, just because someone took a bucket of sand outside to dump, he wasn't going to tolerate some staff officer creating an occupational specialty for it - "all Marines will do what needs to be done," period!

And as with all CMC's he left the Corps with his personal uniform fetish, the Jackie Gleason (Ralph Kramden) bus driver jacket. :)

RUBBER DUCKY

6:50 PM ET

November 19, 2009

Al Gray

Commandant Gray also had a regular comment that bears on the discussion of who's a warrior and who's a REMF: "There are no crowded battlefields!"

Treasure those shooting in the same direction you are, REMFs or not. And in a war with no FEBA, that's pretty much everybody who's not enemy.

STARBUCK

8:54 PM ET

November 19, 2009

Cmdr. Harmen--I wish my

Cmdr. Harmen--I wish my Soldiers had as much musical inclination and inspiration as your Soldiers did. Sadly, I have no dance party videos to show for my time in Iraq. War is hell.

CAPTAIN NOVAL

12:28 PM ET

November 20, 2009

We all do our jobs

The grunts aren't going to get much done if they don't get fed. The MPs won't do much policing of bad guys if they have no ammo resupply. The cavalry won't accomplish any daring feats if their rides aren't serviced.

Tom, I think you are giving too much time to the warfighter/REMF dichotomy. There is nothing especially noble at being shot at by a hajji, and there is nothing disreputable in emptying the bedpans of wounded GIs.

Each part of the machine has its role, and the individual cogs do their part for the benefit of the whole. I don't think there is any special claim to moral authority just because one's convoy got hit by an IED, nor should veterans be shamed into silence just because their MOS required them to process payroll.

ERIC_STRATTONIII

1:04 PM ET

November 20, 2009

No person should be ashamed of ANY service they provide but to make the case that an Admin Clerk is the same as an Infantry Soldier is a long reach. As for moral authority, yes, it does make a difference. Far to often the senior leadership is very far removed from reality and what makes sense in combat (our primary mission in case you did not know that) and then make choices based on politics and what is good for them career wise, not what is right or makes sense. Examples of poor leadership and career oriented leadership abound, much of it due to being away from combat on the ground and hidden in a desk, in a cubicle, in a mess hall, in ward room, etc..etc..

HERB CARMEN

4:20 PM ET

November 20, 2009

VAW-116

The Sun King videos are superb and they speak to how much they enjoy their work. Far more impressive is their talent with flying and maintaining the E-2C Hawkeye and developing innovative ways of getting it all done. They're a creative, hard-working, inspiring team.

DMDENNIS

1:24 AM ET

November 20, 2009

Just an FYI

Tom,

Your Abu Muqawama's link hasn't been updated to his new CNAS address on your blog roll over to right. I saw you had the correct on in this post and remembered that your other one never works since he moved. Just an FYI!

-David

TOM RICKS

2:00 PM ET

November 20, 2009

Will endeavor to fix

Thanks for the heads up
Best,
Tom

ERIC_STRATTONIII

12:36 PM ET

November 20, 2009

I am a bit sad

More and more I notice people who are little more than cubicle bunnies attempting to be held in the same standing as the people who hump into a place and do the fighting, sorry, it does not cut it. The USMC is the only group that does not have real REMFs, they do train everyone as a rifleman first, the Army, Air Force and Navy (When not at Sea) all have vast numbers of REMFs and No, being on a FOB and getting shelled once in a while is not the same as going out and doing the job all the time. I still recall in 04' in Iraq where not one officer in the TOC left the wire but all got Bronze Stars (No V of Course) for the job they did and asked for CIBs and CARs to be awarded as well since we got shelled every night but not anywhere near our living quarter. Meanwhile the guys who left the wire all the time were given JCOMs (No V) and had to fight for CIBs and CARs. The biggest fight the Military has often is not with the enemy but rather with the admin, supply and legal folks who are supposed to support us. Yeah, the guy giving you a cup of coffee might have some insight, yes, the intel officer or JAG are helping the fight sometimes but they should not and should never be held in the same regard as the grunts and SOF guys who are doing the deed all the time.

JPWREL

1:32 PM ET

November 20, 2009

Eric, I am curious about your

Eric, I am curious about your comments of Bronze Star awards to officers who pretty much stayed within the wire. The civilian community is pretty much unaware of the politics of medals and decorations and has a tendency to take chest full of ribbons seriously and assume they must be budding Audie Murphy’s.

Are the Marines still the most tight fisted with medals and the Army the most lavish? Is there a tacit understanding that just doing your job means you are entitled to a decoration? Are Purple Hearts being awarded for non-combat injuries that happen to take place in a combat zone?

Personally, I want our combat troops to get every award they are entitled to but I am concerned about decoration ‘inflation’ where the medals become meaningless because of military politics in their award. Do you think this is an issue or not?

Thanks

ERIC_STRATTONIII

2:14 PM ET

November 21, 2009

Bronze Stars

Rewards are a huge issue-
Bronze Stars are handed out as admin awards, they are allowed to do that under the instructions and boy do they do it. I would say the Army is by far the most slack in giving out awards that are not justified. Example of the only Purple Heart I know of being given out in what I think is improper is the one given to a woman who was running to help an injured troop in OIF 04', fell and broke her wrist or arm, hard to remember, she got a AAM with a V and a Purple Heart since a shooter had caused the injury in the first place to the wounded soldier. She was not in a fire fight, was not shot or get any frag, she fell. I do not know here name but it was on the AFN radio and that is why I remember it so well, she even did an interview, made me want to throw up. The Armed Forces News was silly, we had to listen to it all the way down Route Irish. Also, look at the write ups for the "Lioness" awards, joke. Woman get awards for showing up, wish I was making that up. PC at it's worst.

There seems to be a tacit understanding that you get an end of tour award if you are an E-7 or above and all O's get them. Bronze stars without V's are handed out like candy from what I have seen and they make it a bit of a joke when I have seen Marine LCPLs or Privates do incredible things and get NAMs with a V if lucky. Now, I am an E7, and it galls me no end to see guys not get there due. Again, Officers are the biggest violators and often write each other up or themselves and then get stamps from there OPs or XO.
I would say the worst branches are in this order but I do not have as much time with the AF as I do the other branches, would not be shocked if they were ahead of the Army on this count.
Army #1 (Combat Units were not as bad)
USAF #2
USN #3
USMC #4

I tend to look at any award an Army or AF guys gets and downgrade it at least one and two if it is an Officer and upgrade a Marine's at least one if not more. This is not sour grapes, I am stating what I have seen and I am willing to bet that if you did research you would find that it is all to common and I would not be shocked if it was worse than what I have seen. The Marines do the jobs they were trained to do as do most Army grunts and get little reward or recognition.

SULLY

1:53 PM ET

November 20, 2009

We obviously need both FEMFs

We obviously need both FEMFs and REMFs. But you can't help but notice the REMFs are more likely to be local or third country nationals and not Soldiers, Sailors Airmen or Marines. Ms. Johnson, the POW cook, was probably never in Iraq to cook a meal. Maybe she was there to click her clicker and count the contractors, Soldiers, Sailors Airmen and Marines in the DFAC. Maybe she would have ended up as a gunner in a HMMWV or MRAP escorting the KBR and PWC-Agility trucks up from Kuwait. Would that be FEMF or REMF work?

I think Omar Bradley said "Amateurs talk tactics, professionals study logistics."

"You will not find it difficult to prove that battles, campaigns, and even wars have been won or lost primarily because of logistics." General Dwight D. Eisenhower, U.S. Army

JPWREL

3:26 PM ET

November 20, 2009

With sixty-four years between

With sixty-four years between ourselves and the end of World War Two a more evenhanded and balanced appraisal is taking place of the performance of many commanders who traditionally have been somewhat immune from serious criticism. The plain speaking Omar Bradley is at the top of the list. Well Bradley should focus on the importance of logistics because his tactical and operational acumen in retrospect does not seem to warrant more than maybe a C- or C. On the other hand Lucian Truscott’s reputation has generally been enhanced by such retrospective evaluation. Too bad he had not been in command of the units that eventually became the 12th Army Group in Normandy rather than Bradley.

RUBBER DUCKY

2:14 PM ET

November 20, 2009

REMFs

No FEBA, no rear echelon.

10:15 PM ET

November 20, 2009

Yes, REMFiness exists

I've been closely following this thread. Having spent three years in a support capacity for Navy SOF, and then doing a shore tour before switching over to ACUs with the Nat'l Guard, I feel like I've seen this from all sides.

To answer the question about awards, yes, I've seen *bad* Bronze Stars but never a *bad* Purple Heart. Purple Hearts come under a lot of scrutiny and they tend to reflect real injuries from war zones. There's a ton of confusion about the BS, though...the Meritorious (without the V) version is for sustained superior performance in the combat zone (i.e. a place where you can earn combat pay). There are a LOT of ways to interpret that, as you can imagine. The thing I think most civilians (and even many military) don't know is that how often you went outside the wire, got shot at, etc. is more or less irrelevant to the criteria for the BSM (Bronze Star, Meritorious). A truly phenomenal Supply Sergeant or Targeting Officer, or Seabee Detachment leader can and SHOULD be eligible for the BS, regardless of trigger time.

Let me also say there's no funnier topic in the military than awards. Why? Because the inevitable preface is that "I don't really care about awards anyway," which is then followed by a 30-minute rant about how the speaker got screwed out of an award while his Sergeant Major or his Captain got an undeserved Bronze Star.

Back to the point about REMFiness, though...as Bob Kaplan and many other military writers have written about time and again, professionalism and overall atttitude/quality tend to come in direct proportion to the unit's closeness to the fight. I feel like I came across way too many sh*t-hot EOD guys doing 18 hour days, as well as enough of the REMFy guys manning the desks at the helo terminals to see that up-close.

Also, I came across enough guys whose main focus on their Iraq tours was suntanning, running marathons, losing 80 pounds, taking college classes, etc. (i.e. anything having NOTHING to do with OIF!!) and then hearing them at the bar telling stories about "over there" and seeing their extreme fixation on their cool gear to become a little jaded.

By and large, I found the Intel types doing the 18+ hour days, the SEALs generally being amazing at whatever they did, and having superior work ethic (no surprise, right...remember, they all made it through BUD/S), but so many other people being huge dirtbags who complained ANY time they were asked to do ANYTHING.

And to me, that's what REMFiness, or FOBBITtude, or whatever, comes down to. It's all about a person's mentality. For all the lip service about "all for one, one for all" I've seen too many people spend their overseas tours doing NOTHING to believe what everyone says. It's not a perfect correlation, but in general I find that people in the support MOSs are just somewhat more likely to be turds, and have little appreciation/caring for the guys that go out and get the job done, night after night.

Personally, I bolted for Civil Affairs just because I don't quite think I'm a SOF operator, but I know I'm a lot MORE than some TOC monkey who complains because the coffee is too cold. CA seemed like the perfect fit.

SLINKYSIX

8:40 PM ET

November 22, 2009

@ GP: How do you like CA?

@ GP: How do you like CA? I'm currently an junior Infantry Officer who joined with the intent of going SFAS, but after nearly tearing my Achilles tendon, tearing my right ankle, and now tearing my meniscus and damaging my ACL (all within a year), I'm beginning to wonder if I'm physically rugged enough for SF. That said, I like to think I'm smarter than the average bear and certainly don't want to be a TOC monkey.

2:53 AM ET

November 23, 2009

CA...wish I could tell ya

SlinkySix -- sorry about those injuries, man..that sucks. I wish I could say more about CA but I'm still too early in the pipeline. I've got the CAQC lined up for this year and probably some more schools before OEF next fall.

All I can say about CA is the stuff I saw overseas, the stories from the VFW, and all the stuff I gather from reading blogs like this and reading all the GWOT (Tom, can we still say GWOT?) books I can come across.

All added up, CA seems like the place to be...OIF, OEF, Kosovo (yes, Kosovo!) guys all seem to say that CA has a great mission. Don't listen to the PsyOps guys who trash it, I think that's like a sibling rivalry thing.

If you're into language, you're into culture, you're into democracy-building/nation-building, I just couldn't think of a better job. Seems like it beats the pants off being an S2 for a Battalion in terms of the actual understanding you'll gain from a place, too.

..And if there are any actual 38As reading this, I'd love to hear your thoughts and I bet SlinkySix would, too...please pipe up and let us know what you think about the community, the CAQC, USACAPOC, the language and cultural stuff, etc.

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December 11, 2009

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