REMFs (III): Once more unto the breach

Posted By Thomas E. Ricks Share

I've been mulling young Maj. Gen. Dunlap's great contribution last week. I still like it, but, without taking anything away from his combat JAGs, I've got a couple of distinctions to make.

First, there is no lack in history of REMFs who become heroes. That's part of the story -- for example, Mess Attendant 2nd Class Dory Miller stepping up to the machine gun at the crucial moment. The important difference between service members is that some are in a line of work in which they routinely get shot at or otherwise threatened with the loss of life, and some are not. It doesn't depend on your MOS -- obviously, even a food service specialist can find his or herself on the front lines. (See photo above.) And lawyers who get bombed while moving around Iraq -- yeah, they are in the middle of combat too.

But I still think that the infantry and the like should be privileged above others, for the combination of being shot at a lot, and also simply suffering harsh conditions as part of the job. Am I wrong?

Here's a thoughtful comment posted a couple of days ago by "Schmedlap" that I think kind of settles it out for me:

"REMF" is not an MOS or duty position. It is a state of mind. Ditto "FOBbit" and "TOC Rat" and others. "REMF" is a term of derision borne not of one's location, but of one's attitude. It's one thing to be in the rear and busting your tail to help the guys closer to the fight. It's quite another to be in the rear and hogging every amenity and doing nothing to help the people who need support. The latter is a REMF, FOBbit, or whatever similar term you want to apply to it.

Italics are mine. I think he is right.

U.S. Navy

EXPLORE:IRAQ, MILITARY
 
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BILL KELLER

5:14 PM ET

November 17, 2009

The winning side of a zero sum attitude..

"REMF" is a term of derision borne not of one's location, but of one's attitude..." regardless of status. A REMF uses the blood of others to feed its ambitions and fortune. Example: when young use deferments to avoid being placed in harms way while building a network and status; at middle age, use network and status, to gain rights (A76) to the profits that war will generate; later, generate the war that those sole rights will reward; and, always along the way create the IEDs (Swift boaters, etc.) that maim those who had placed themselves in harms way so as to hold all wars' benefits (without burden beyond distasteful speaking engagements) to oneself and heirs.

 

RUBBER DUCKY

5:44 PM ET

November 17, 2009

The Navy's different

There are three rules of naval warfare:

1. Keep the boat afloat.

2. Keep the boat afloat.

3. Keep the boat afloat.

Violate any one of these and all aboard are affected.

I had a shipmate who was a Musician First Class aboard a ship in WW-II. His battle station was a gun turret.

Navy staffs embark. Those ashore are on 'shore duty,' the interval between sea assignments.

In addition to acceptance of the hazards of the sea, US Navy personnel are now aiding the forces ashore in Iraq and Afghanistan, participating in the Navy's Individual Augmentation program that places all manner of Navy skills and paygrades ashore for individual assignments in-country.

The Navy is different. Ain't got no REMFs.

And to another thread, the Navy also has a history of continuous and repeated 'deployments,' relying on its internal resources and the strength of the Navy Family to care for loved ones left behind on the beach. The huge issues in this area affecting the US Army are more the result of military over-reach than of unreadiness to deal with the issue. And for the record, my dad was drafted into the US Navy in late 1942. He was home only once before the war ended.

 

TYRTAIOS

7:29 PM ET

November 17, 2009

What He Said

In April 1968, a pitched battle with no quarter given was fought between the Marines of 2ndBn, 4thMar and a large NVA force, reinforcing from across the DMZ, at a place called Dao Dai, Vietnam. The battalion aid station was set-up near a river bank of the Cau Viet River leading out to the S. China Sea. As Marine casualties were evacuated out to ship -incoming choppers would bring back treated wounded that could still fight.

It was noted that manning the perimeter of the aid station, with scavenged rifles, were individuals wearing blue dungarees. It seems some of our Navy brethren snuck aboard some of the birds, to come ashore into harms way and help-out. No REMFs that day!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Vargas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_E._Livingston

 

RUBBER DUCKY

8:04 PM ET

November 17, 2009

Jay Vargas

Tyrtoios:

Jay Vargas, Medal of Honor winner, was a classmate of mine at The National War College, Class of '82. Neat guy.

 

RUBBER DUCKY

8:05 PM ET

November 17, 2009

 

ERIC_STRATTONIII

10:11 PM ET

November 17, 2009

Totally Agree

The Navy is and always will be different than the other services. Mr. Ricks has a pretty good handle on the Military for someone in the press but the subtle differences still elude him a bit. A ship at Sea in time of war has no REMFs, just no choice in the matter is all, a FOB or Army Division or other large unit does, with the exception on land being the USMC, whose REMFs are still Infantry first.

 

ARMYSPOUSE7

6:16 PM ET

November 17, 2009

MOS

I am a military spouse to an active duty Infantry Soldier; with that said, I am in aggreement with Air Force Maj. Gen. Charles Dunlap regarding the young female JAG Officer who was injured in the line of duty. Although her MOS does not call for her to be in the line of fire on a daily basis, I do agree that she rose to the circumstances and did what needed to be done in order to serve her country. Her service is in no way less than that of a Soldier who is shot at daily. A huge number of the casualties of this war have been killed by IEDs. Any Soldier serving in Iraq and Afghanistan can be subject to an attack, especially one in a Humvee. Should one MOS be recognized above another? I do not know; however, I do know that each Soldier fulfills a role in helping our military perform its mission. Any Soldier fighting these wars can become a Soldier under fire and should be recognized for their bravery not for their MOS.

Operation Iraqi Freedom--4,861 Casualties
Operation Enduring Freedom---1,519 Casualties
http://icasualties.org/
Thank you for your service!!

 

PAUL G

8:19 PM ET

November 17, 2009

The perfect REMF

There really aren’t that many pure-bred REMFs. Even most of the worst ones have SOME redeeming characteristic. I once had the misfortune, though, to run into a soldier who so personified all of the contemptible qualities associated with true REMFs that, if they had a Westminster Kennel Club show for REMFs, he would have taken Best in Show. I’m going to describe this pathetic excuse for a human being in hopes of perfecting the understanding of all those who are worried that they or a loved one might be mistaken for a REMF.

I ran into this guy at Bien Hoa as I was outprocessing from Vietnam. He was a SP4 of medium height, greasy black hair, and a sort of pasty, oily complexion.He was also noticeably overweight. It was my misfortune to be slightly ahead of him in line and I got to hear his war stories over and over for nearly an hour. You see, he was a bus driver who spent his entire tour in Saigon, and what I got to hear about were his stories of how many Vietnamese he had run over with his bus. Each story was told in excruciating detail in a loud, braying voice that grated on my nerves. All of his buddies kept whooping it up every time he’d tell a story.

I hoped I had seen the last of the guy once we got finished with the lines and were waiting to board the Freedom Bird, but it wasn’t to be. They seated the passengers by rank, privates in the back and those of us of more lofty military accomplishment farther toward the front. Anyway, SP4 Blowhard boarded the plane and a few minutes later I, as an E-5, got on, only to find him seated about three or four rows behind me, complaining loudly about being forced to sit in a middle seat. I understood then why they didn’t allow us to carry weapons on the plane. If they had, that guy would have been dead about the time that we went “feet wet.”

I suggest that this soldier perfectly exemplifies all the qualities we look for in a world-class REMF. Most of the time when grunts accuse someone of being a REMF, it’s done in fun. We know that person didn’t have any more choice about his job than we did. Like most people in the military, he’s doing it to the best of his ability. When we bitch about REMFs in the abstract, as a class, though, this is the kind of guy we’re talking about.

That JAG officer GEN Dunlap wrote of may have served in what passes for a rear echelon these days, but it seems highly, highly unlikely that she was a REMF. If she were truly a REMF, she would have found a way to be indispensible on the FOB so she didn’t have to take the ride that got her injured.

 

LEGAL EAGLE WARRIOR

9:28 PM ET

November 17, 2009

Agreement from a JAG

I think the emphasis on "attitude" is spot on but I do feel that those who embrace the suck (usually infantry) deserve a level of respect above and beyond us support personnel.

I'm a judge advocate in the National Guard. I have yet to deploy but I suspect that when I do (scheduled for next year), I won't be manning a remote outpost at the tip of the spear, kicking in doors (not that we do much of that anymore), or humping up the mountainside on patrol. So for the guys that do that kind of work - and often doing it while sucking down E-4 pay - I'll go the extra mile to help them out. Fortunately I can do that as a legal assistance officer, assisting them with wills, powers of attorney, family law issues (a big one), and consumer-related problems. It's my distinct honor to serve them.

 

RLOVELY

9:56 PM ET

November 17, 2009

The oddest thing (to me, at

The oddest thing (to me, at least) about this entire series of posts is that Mr. Ricks doesn't even rate to be a REMF.

Tell you what, Mr. Ricks-- step up, sign on the dotted line and serve your country. Then you'll be qualified to call someone else a REMF. Until then, don't hang off the coat tails of other people just so you can get a cheap shot in on someone you don't agree with.

And before you ask...11B.

 

ADMIRAL

12:13 AM ET

November 18, 2009

Award Winning Post

My hat is off to you sir. USMC 1803/0303.

 

RUBBER DUCKY

12:14 AM ET

November 18, 2009

Wrong target

I suspect Tom has had more rounds in his direction than most of the military on this blog. Lay off.

 

RLOVELY

4:04 PM ET

November 18, 2009

Suspect away. In the

Suspect away. In the meantime, I'll ask the pertinent question: And?

That in no way makes his attack on a fellow soldier's service (and yes, I do believe derisively referring to the JAG as a REMF is an attack) acceptable.

The fact is that Mr. Ricks never stepped up to the plate himself. He's using terms usually reserved for intra-service jockeying. And why's he doing it? Because he's been around a few Infantrymen? Because he's had a few rounds sent his way?

Get real. It's equivalent to me insulting his work with journalist-exclusive terminology simply because I once spent a significant amount of time around the media.

 

ERIC_STRATTONIII

9:31 PM ET

November 18, 2009

He does a good job for the press

Let's be honest, I have seen far more contempt for REMFs on our end than in any of his comments and with good reason. We cannot get the word out and far to often the REMFs are running the show, as an 11B you know that to be true. He is the ONLY voice we may have for the combat arms, it is also only going to get worse under this administration-the CNO is asking for 20% quota on females in the Navy, there is pressure on Congress to lift the ban on females in ground combat and to open up ALL jobs (including specops) to females. It is in effect, a military run by REMF's still, it is nice to have a voice at least.
There are REMF's, period

 

IAN.D.SMITH

2:23 AM ET

November 18, 2009

Ricks is a smart who that

Ricks is a smart guy who that devotes his career to commentary on improving our nation's defense. He serves in an important way, just as you do.

and before you ask...uh, not in the business of signing using my MOS code. You can be cynical, but get over yourself, 11B.

Ian

 

RLOVELY

4:10 PM ET

November 18, 2009

Get over myself because I

Get over myself because I think Ricks has no right to insult the service of anyone, REMF or otherwise? Especially considering the fact that he never stepped up himself?

Sure, Ian. Just like providing commentary on national security matters is equivalent to serving in the military. Got it.

 

JTINSC

3:25 AM ET

November 18, 2009

REMF is a military term

I'm with Riovely. As one who spent too much time in the place where the term was coined, I can say that it was rough insider language, intended solely for use by military personnel around other military personnel. Don't believe it? Try using it around your mom and explaining it to her. Furthermore, it's an insulting term and I don't think any civilian has earned the right to use it when addressing or referring to any member of the military.

If Mr. Ricks wants to use insider jargon to insult military personnel, then I think he should join up. Otherwise, whether he or other posters like it, he is a civilian. It's accordingly my sense that not only should he avoid insulting military personnel, he should eschew the use of their insider language. He's not entitled.

And, yeah, Mr. Ricks, you insulted Dory Miller and lots of other support people. No one ever likes being called "REMF," even if the nice journalist then writes kind words about heroics or whatever.

BTW, I'm a retired regular army officer.

 

SOCAL55

4:22 PM ET

November 18, 2009

Completely overlooked

are the scores of thousands of mostly very poor third world citizens who are now an indispensable part of any U.S. war effort. They are brought into violent war zones under varying degrees of willingness. Individually they are poorly paid and completely expendable and replaceable. Consequently the costs that might ordinarily be incurred by providing the high level of living conditions and force protections deemed necessary for U.S. troops can be dispensed with and used instead to increase the profits of the companies that employ them. These companies are almost all foreign owned or American companies that use "cut outs" in places like Dubai or the Cayman Islands to avoid U.S. labor regulations and taxes.
Over 500 of the non-persons they employ on behalf of the U.S. Government in Iraq have been killed, perhaps tens of thousands more have been injured. The U.S. Government has been very careful to avoid requiring serious record keeping so it is not possible to know the numbers with any precision.
At any rate without this private army of indentured servants taking fire in very hot war zones all military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan would grind to a halt.

 

ERIC_STRATTONIII

9:33 PM ET

November 18, 2009

Not the topic here

The topic is REMF's in the Military, those contractors who go out with the troops are hardly REMF's and they are not even part of the topic, save your rant for the right space and article please.

 

SOCAL55

11:39 PM ET

November 18, 2009

merely pointing out

that at one point as many as 170,000 "REMF's" had been replaced with contracted personnel. It seems logical that what ever could be said, good or bad, about support personnel would apply to these folks as well. What is "rear echelon" in Iraq anyway........Kuwait??
BTW when did Mr Ricks die and leave you Webmaster?

 

BILL KELLER

5:20 PM ET

November 18, 2009

REMFs in the news and at the trough....

http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2009-11-17-military-mentors_N.htm

Working the after market.

 

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Thomas E. Ricks covered the U.S. military for the Washington Post from 2000 through 2008.

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