Posted By Thomas E. Ricks Share

One of the great things about CNAS is the quality of the interns. One of them now is Kyle Flynn, who is studying at Georgetown and is helping with research on my next book. He is a former Special Forces NCO who served two tours in Afghanistan. He mentioned that he was struck by the comments Peter Bergen made at a congressional hearing last week on Afghanistan. I asked him to share his thoughts, and here they are:

On Oct. 7 Sen. John Kerry chaired a hearing of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on the current threat posed by Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, Pakistan and beyond. Invited to participate in the discussion were three highly-respected experts on terrorism and Al-Qaeda: Peter Bergen of the New America Foundation; Dr. Mark Sageman of the Foreign Policy Research Institute Center on Terrorism, Counter-Terrorism, and Homeland Security; and Robert Grenier, a former CIA station chief in Pakistan and former director of the DCI Counterterrorist Center. Drawing from my own assumptions and experiences with 3rd Special Forces Group in Khost province in 2005-2006 and Oruzgan province in 2007-2008, I found myself falling in line behind Mr. Bergen's observations most often in regard to Afghanistan-in particular on the close ties that Al-Qaeda and the Taliban have formed since 9/11 and the problem of developing a centralized Afghan army to help combat the insurgency. It is also my belief that generalizations made on Afghanistan often lack utility because the conditions on the ground vary greatly from province to province and even district to district. So even my own experiences in Afghanistan may not actually depict reality on the ground in most places.

Below, Mr. Bergen comments on the current relationship between Al-Qaeda and the Taliban:

Al Qaeda has influenced the Taliban ideologically and tactically to a very great degree. The reason that we're having an epidemic of suicide attacks and beheadings of hostages and IED attacks is because the Taliban sent people to Iraq to learn from the insurgency and they copycatted the insurgency, and al Qaeda and the Taliban today are far closer than they were before 9/11.

The idea that if the Taliban were in power, they wouldn't bring back al-Qaeda is absurd. The whole Taliban project has been about protecting al Qaeda, and if international forces pull out of Afghanistan or we lowered our commitment, the Taliban would eventually take control of part of the country and could even take it over entirely, not because the Taliban is so strong, but because the Afghan government and the Afghan military right now are so weak.

Al Qaeda is a force multiplier. It's like having U.S. Special Forces. So even-you know, General Jones, the national security adviser, said there were 100 members of al Qaeda in Afghanistan right now. Those are the people who are helping with IEDs. Those are the people helping with the training. Those are the people with experience. So, while the number may be small and al Qaeda's always been a small organization, just fixating on the numbers doesn't-isn't very helpful because it's about their influence ideologically and tactically that's important."

What interested me here was that Bergen spoke directly to the ongoing debate over U.S. political aims and military strategy in the region. It is worth asking therefore whether anyone is still debating seriously the idea that disparate elements of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban are now more closely aligned than they were eight years earlier? More often than not, we still attempt to categorize Al-Qaeda and the Taliban separately in regard to our vital national interests but not to strategic objectives on the ground. In theory, we are in the region to deny a centralized Al-Qaeda a sanctuary from which to train and operate. In reality, however, we are there executing a comprehensive counterinsurgency strategy against a largely decentralized and disorganized Taliban movement comprised of Afghan, Pakistani, and foreign nationals.

If only Al-Qaeda poses a strategic threat to U.S. national interests but we must defeat an element of the Taliban to defeat Al-Qaeda, then how can we logically separate the two in terms of policy but not strategy?  Although I believe strongly in the Accidental Guerilla syndrome, I also believe that we sometimes forget that the Quetta Shura Taliban, Hezb-e Islami Gulbuddin, and the Haqqani networks are comprised primarily of Afghan nationals. From my experience and to our own detriment, I believe that we often overlook the local nature of this conflict. At what point do we finally admit that we are fighting an enemy that will never align its interest to those of Coalition forces and our host-nation allies? Clearly then, to defeat the insurgency we have to eliminate the insurgents. The notion that we can today somehow align ourselves with a moderate Taliban that tomorrow will not realign itself with the same fanatics with whom it's been fighting all these years is ridiculous. 

On a different note, Mr. Bergen also has some valid concerns on the effectiveness of the Afghan national army:

And my concern is that the Afghan army, in much of the country, is essentially a foreign army. Doesn't mean that it has the active opposition of much of even the Pashtun population, but it's not a Pashtun army. And if they come in, I think most people will be content to do with them as they are essentially doing with American forces now, and that is to sit on the fence and wait and see who wins this thing. Unless we have their active cooperation, I just don't think that we're going to get any real traction in this campaign. And so the concern that I have is that we are placing much too much of the emphasis currently on the buildup of an Afghan army."

My experience in Deh Rawod supports Mr. Bergen's observations on many counts. Foremost, it is no secret that for security to exist in Afghanistan, a bottom-up approach which begins at the tribal and district level must be adopted throughout the country. Therefore, transplanting an Afghan army battalion comprised of Tajiks, Hazaras, or Turks to the Pashtun belt does not make sound policy, at least not to me. During my second deployment, I witnessed everything from good old-fashioned fisticuffs to full blown armed standoffs between the "foreign" army and our local Afghan security forces. Which begs me to ask why a Pashtun tribe would assist what they perceive as a foreign army more than a localized insurgency comprised of members of their own tribe and perhaps even family? The very idea of a developing a 200,000 strong Afghan army which can operate freely and effectively throughout the heart of the insurgency is a non-starter. While we should be focused on developing localized defense forces to combat and defeat an internal insurgency, we are instead creating an army better positioned to combat external threats. Again, we seem to have a knack for confusing the bottom-up and top-down approaches to strategic success in Afghanistan.

Some may argue however that a non-Pashtun army will be more willing to engage a Pashtun insurgency and more importantly not succumb so easily to Taliban infiltration. While I agree to some extent with both assumptions, I would also argue that only localized security forces have the ability to collect the intelligence necessary to defeat this type of insurgency. Thus, the risk of Taliban infiltration of localized security forces is unavoidable because without the collection of localized intelligence, the war is all but lost. So if the local population has no intention of assisting an Afghan army battalion comprised of different ethnicities, then in my opinion the battalion's tactical value is close to zero. I also agree with Mr. Bergen regarding the use of warlords and other localized power structures which could help accomplish that which should be our primary goal: that is, to defeat both the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.

 
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ZJIN

4:29 PM ET

October 13, 2009

Two comments: 1)Using

Two comments:

1)Using warlords has only one problem: there is no good warlord.

2)If the biggest Al-Qaeda influence is on ideology. Then how can you defeat that by sending more troops?

 

JPWREL

6:13 PM ET

October 13, 2009

Tom, this is one of your best

Tom, this is one of your best blogs on this subject. Bergen’s views and your comments are interesting. The marriage of al Qaeda and the Taliban seems pretty indisputable.

Couple of points:
1 – As A. J. Rossmiller writes today in TNR, your pal Petraeus’s own ‘COIN’ Field Manual says that roughly 20 counterinsurgents is recommended for every 1,000 in population in order to win. Afghanistan has about 28.6 million, which means about 560,000 plus NATO troops! Even if that figure were high one would think that a 40 to 1 ratio would be about the minimum, which is about 300,000 troops. Even at the lower figure it seems to me to be both militarily and politically not on. What to do?

2 – Why not take a ‘victory’ off the table and accept a stalemate? Negotiate and bribe whatever tribal leaders and warlords necessary for assistance. Also, protect the larger populations centers and use special op’s against identified targets? The advantage of this approach is a smaller footprint, which is less offensive to the indigenous population and much less costly in blood and cash?

 

MDREW

9:42 PM ET

October 13, 2009

Except it's not Tom's.

Only the italicized part introducing his intern are his words.

Tom in my view really never returned to this blog in force after vacating for the month of August, at least where the fundamental issues and problems of this war are concerned. I honestly don't have any idea where he is coming down on much of this this at the moment.

We shouldn't wonder then that whatever consensus was reached in the administration in March has not held through. Without a doubt, the president does need to come out of hiding on his war forthwith.

 

JPWREL

12:10 AM ET

October 14, 2009

Your quite right about Tom’s

Your quite right about Tom’s scarcity in this blog, but since it is his playground I thought it proper to address myself to him. He is also pretty involved in his new book, which must consume a great deal of time.

My gut feel is that Obama does not trust the military advice he is receiving or the motives of some senior officers who are definitely not his political allies. However, how does an inexperienced new President deal with such a situation where the brass do not respect him and with the support of their conservative allies quite willing to undermine and circumvent the chain of command.

Jack Kennedy found himself in a similar boat and began to pretty much disregard the views of the uniforms. Had he lived it would have been interesting to see how he would have dealt with them as the situation in Vietnam deteriorated.

 

TOM RICKS

3:09 AM ET

October 14, 2009

Really?

Jeez, guys, I thought I had a pretty good September!
Best,
Tom

 

MDREW

7:34 AM ET

October 15, 2009

Walking back

It was a bit overly harsh - my apologies. I am in no way questioning the work you're putting in here and elsewhere; this is just a feeling I've had about how you've been approaching the question of how we should go forward in Afghanistan on this blog in particular since the debate has revived so vigorously through the fall. I have gotten the sense that you have been holding your views back to some extent. Many of your posts pass along tidbits from contacts of yours in the field, and that is extremely valuable. But so are your own considered thoughts, and on the bottom line questions, they haven't been front and center that I have seen. Now, i wouldn't blame you if you said that you, like the president, are revisiting fundamental questions. I certainly am myself; I'm rather consumed with it and it's purely a civic/intellectual interest of mine -- I have no professional organizational stake in the matter myself. But just after writing the comment above, I heard you on Warren Olney's To The Point persuasively arguing the case for a sufficiently resourced COIN campaign against an also-persuasive skeptic from Georgetown (it's all persuasive to us layfolk!). So I found out then that you have a clear view on the basic question going forward. Perhaps I've been missing it, but I haven't seen much in the way of arguments for that view being constructed here, where you have essentially unlimited space to do so if you choose. Maybe as a veteran reporter advocacy isn't your first instinct, or maybe you don't take the arguments against an escalation seriously. I would suggest that either of those views would be mistaken. I look at this as something of an all-hands moment for our country: we need those with the experience and expertise that you have, Mr. Ricks, to come forward with their views on the question, and make the best case for it they can. In general I'd rather allow anyone who prefers to remain uncommitted to do so, but in this situation I think we need to have access to as many expert views as possible in order to consider all the best arguments for the various alternatives.

But this is your platform to do with as you please, and I'll continue to seek out your perspective regardless of what questions you choose to engage.

 

JBMOORE61

5:54 PM ET

October 13, 2009

Seems like a great assessment of the problem

I believe that Mr. Flynn's observations and assessments are right on. Our elites are generally fixated on and think in terms of Cold War entities and factions, and our strategy and mindset reflects that. Just substitute AQ for VC and Taliban for NVA, or pick your own analogs. Just as a top-down approach failed the USSR, a top-down approach will fail us. As in Vietnam, we may win all the battles and end up losing the war because we didn't get the population to buy into supporting the government we installed, and we did not see the underlying motivations of the enemy. The Taliban know that they can wait us out just as the Vietnamese did. After all, it is their country. Besides, if we strengthen the local districts economically, politically, and militarily, the Taliban will lose due to lack of sanctuary. We failed to do that in Vietnam and we are failing to do that now. The one bright spot in all this is that we are trying to protect the population this time except when we blow up farmers planting seed or Afghan wedding parties because the drone operators assume that three or more people in a crowd are insurgents. But Mr. Flynn knows more about those issues than I do.

 

JASON SIGGER

7:00 PM ET

October 13, 2009

Missing the point

"If only Al-Qaeda poses a strategic threat to U.S. national interests but we must defeat an element of the Taliban to defeat Al-Qaeda, then how can we logically separate the two in terms of policy but not strategy?"

Isn't the point of COIN tactics to separate AQ from the Taliban, thus removing the accidental guerillas from the swamp? If you are suggesting that the Taliban won't ever be nice to the Afghani govt in Kabul and therefore we have to kill the Taliban and the AQ together, then it's going to get pretty bloody.

I think arguments such as Bergen's inevitably miss the broader point. If the Taliban take over Afghanistan - as they did in the 1990s - so what? If AQ places training camps in Afghanistan, do we not have SIGNIT and connections with the Pakistani military to identify and hit these sites? The challenge is not eliminating every single insurgent in Pakistan and Afghanistan, it's making sure they don't hit the United States.

As Prof Bacevich points out again and again, Mexico has more strategic value to the United States than Afghanistan. If you want to keep AQ from hittin us here, then put the defenses and the intel in place to do so. I'll bet you can do it for a lot less than $5-6 billion a year and use a lot less than 100,000 troops.

 

ZJIN

7:00 PM ET

October 13, 2009

If you have to withdraw from

If you have to withdraw from some part of Ag to protect the population, doesn't it mean that you leave a safe heaven for them? What difference does it make if you leave some part of a whole country for your enemy as safe heavens?

 

EMRYS56

7:33 PM ET

October 13, 2009

While I largely agree with

While I largely agree with many of Mr. Flynn's observations, there are problems. First and foremost, Our relation with Afghanistan is government to government. While it may be more effective to build, from a COIN perspective, provincial militia, our contract with the Afghan government calls for building a national army. And then it may well be that Mr. Karsai doesn't wish to have provincially based armed forces, given Afghanistan's warlord history. Given that much of what we do to affect security in Afghanistan is filtered through Kabul, I'm not certain that a "local" strategy is feasible, however desirable it might be.

I do not believe that NATO can effectively eliminate all Taliban elements in the country, as Mr. Flynn suggests; we are outsiders and as such simply do not have the contact information necessary to the job. I doubt that even provincial militia would be able to perform this task, although they likely would be better tolerated. The problem, as it see it, is that the Taliban is a nationalists movement with heavy religious overtones. Afghans, I suspect, would be more sympathetic to the the local Taliban, who speak on their terms and adjudicate their problems, then even a locally recruited militia. So something more that a local face on security is needed.

Finally, I rather suspect that there are Taliban and there are Taliban. As we found in Iraq, any insurgent that can be persuaded to put down arms is one less rifle/IED to worry about. If moderates in the Taliban movement can be encouraged to put down their arms with some sort of armistice, then I think it well worth pursuing. However, even I would prefer not to see a return of the Taliban of old.

 

WATSON

7:43 PM ET

October 13, 2009

Graveyard of careers

It’s not politically correct nowadays to admit to being an occupier; therefore the mission must be characterized as counterterrorism or counterinsurgency.

But let’s be real, they’re talking about controlling Afghanistan for geo-strategic reasons. (Remember The Grand Chessboard, Zbig’s 1997 blueprint for “American Primacy”?)

Can we pull it off?

Hundreds of thousands of US MPs and riflemen is a conservative estimate.

But a draft is considered politically unfeasible, and corruption** trumps doctrine in the procurement-driven US military. Consequently, rather than sufficient boots-on-the-ground, we’re limited to shock-and-awe aerial tactics plus targeted assassinations.

Let’s hope that some of our allegedly under-educated officer corps are familiar with the term “Graveyard of Empires”, and realize that this may be the graveyard of their careers.

(** Larceny is undoubtedly rampant on all levels -- e.g., the Rumsfeld-era body armor scam -- but big-ticket weapons or systems contracts are much easier to game than infantry payrolls.)

 

TYRTAIOS

8:20 PM ET

October 13, 2009

Where to make a stand?

I've no truck with any of the analysis and opinions offered here. However, if we are now connecting al-Qaeda to the Taliban in an ever closer relationship of mutual support, we had better admit after Afghanistan, we'll need to head to Yemen and Somalia as well. Why would it be any differant there?

And using warlords will be nothing new. We'll just do it more openly - oh, and let's not criticize Karzai for doing the same either! : |

 

DMDENNIS

10:11 PM ET

October 13, 2009

What if we stopped treating

What if we stopped treating Afghanistan as if it was a fully interconnected country yearning for a sovereign nationality? And what of our troop levels? Iraq and Afghanistan have roughly the same size of populations, and yet in 2007 we barely turned Iraq around with 168,000+ American troops, somewhere close to 200,000+ uniformed Iraqi soldiers, 10's of thousands of Sahwah/SOI, and thousands upon thousands of contractors. This is in a country that is far more urbanized and developed than Afghanistan, with a much more developed transportation network(roads), that the US Military has been focusing on for the past 15 years in one way or another.

What in the heck are we doing when our application of COIN strategy leads us to throw random battalions out into places like Wanat and COP Keating with no artillery, little air support, horrible defensive positions, and we don't even have an inkling of support from the local populace? It seems like we are ridiculously overstretched and out gunned right now. This post might be more appropriate for the COP Keating thread but reading Mr. Flynn's assessment regarding the ANA really brought home the connection between the support of the local forces in Iraq versus Afghanistan and it's aid to the COIN fight.

 

SIR_MIXXALOT

2:21 AM ET

October 14, 2009

The CIA says get out

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/graham-e-fuller/global-viewpoint-obamas-p_b_201355.html?view=print

Graham E. Fuller is a former CIA station chief in Kabul and a former vice-chair of the CIA's National Intelligence Council. He is author of numerous books on the Middle East, including The Future of Political Islam.

 

TOM RICKS

3:11 AM ET

October 14, 2009

This is a liberal trope I distrust . . .

This is a liberal trope I distrust--to triumphantly quote the CIA when some of their vets agree with you. It reminds me of the Ramparts magazine articles of my youth.
Best,
Tom

 

PG1923

10:37 PM ET

October 14, 2009

Looks like

One thing Obama and his soul mates need to understand is that we are the enemy, no matter that we are supported by the corrupt government we installed in Kabul. We are the enemy and the Taliban and Al-Qaeda will remain united until we leave. COIN will work as well in Afghanistan as it did in Vietnam, and remember we had more then a half-a-million troops in Vietnam.

Pakistan has no thoughts of staying in the Taliban areas. They will declare victory and leave after cutting some deal. They are much more worried about India then a few Taliban/Al-Qaeda nuts. That leaves us with our hands tied behind our backs trying to kill ghosts.

We will finally leave this horrible place when we just can't take anymore. I give us three years before we declare victory and leave. Then, and only then, will the Taliban maybe decide an association with Al-Qaeda is not worth it.

 

TYRTAIOS

3:28 PM ET

October 15, 2009

Look again

And of those 500,000 troops in Vietnam, the majority were support troops - a little nuance you forgot to mention. I'm getting tired of that analogy w/o putting it in perspective.

You may be correct with everything else.

 

JSINAIKO

3:42 PM ET

October 15, 2009

Tom - This has been going on

Tom -

This has been going on for months - and not just because the administration is "dithering."

Everything Bergen says makes the entire effort - short of some sort of ten-year commitment with hundreds of thousands of troops, something that is logistically and economically not feasible - sound very much like a blueprint for catastrophe. It's easy to blithely yak about the level of committment necessary, but is any of that realistic?

But my main question to you is this: do you really think US COIN doctrine can be an effective strategy in Afghanistan? Do you really, truly believe that it'll work? Can you name any place since the Brits in Malaysia in the 50s where it has? If we are going to follow you hawks blindly down this path, it would be helpful if you provide more than a few generals theories. Can you site examples? And again, even if you can, is Afghanistan a place where any of this can be repeated? We are hearing all sorts of POVs around how to make this work, but bone of them are honest about either the level of commitment necessary and/or the odds on any of it actually having a positive impact.

Finally, what about the Afghan kleptocray, I mean national government? As many others have pointed out, we can do "everything right" but without a decent government in Kabul - one that at least tries - what's the point?

It's more than a little depressing to hear all these reasons to stay and/or increase our presence militarily, without these fundamental, and possibly disastrous problems even being mentioned, much less addressed. Especially in light of your snarky comments about liberals and Ramparts magazine forty years ago. Tom: there is serious and thoughtful opposition to grow this war. It is very unhelpful for you to just blow this line of opinion off with sarcasm and snide comments. It weakens your argument and makes you sound like Joe Alsop circa 1965. Not a very good way to advance your POV.

 

TYRTAIOS

6:39 PM ET

October 15, 2009

Just a caveat:

on the Malaysian Emergency. It lasted 10-years until 1960.

Forceably relocating entire ethnic Chinese villages, destroying crops, are often glossed-over by historians using this model of success - and success it may have been "then" but the methods used are not available to us, and Afstan has differant dynamics in play, one of which is a porous border with Pakistan (and Iran, which people forget).

 

JSINAIKO

12:51 AM ET

October 16, 2009

Interesting. And here I was,

Interesting. And here I was, thinking it was all hearts and minds and a careful culling of the [Chinese] insurgents while protecting the indigenous population from their depredations and from reprisals for supporting the Brits in teh first place.

My years in Belfast ought to have informed my understanding of how the Brits (not that they are alone in this) actually operate versus their own accounts of how they operate.

But your points are well taken and make it pretty clear that in fact there is no demonstrable conflict of any sort - war of national liberation (Vietnam), fictionalized and feudal with no center (Afghanistan), big imperial power vs. small 3rd world nation-state (Nicaragua), civil war (El Salvador), or portion thereof (US Special Forces in the Central Highlands circa 1964 - 65, which may be the purest, perhaps the only, attempt by the US of true COIN - ask Col. Kurtz how that worked out ;-)) where COIN has been implemented and can be shown to have succeeded.

Pretty sobering. Especially because it exposes COIN as something of a Potemkin village - lots of theory, written by smart officers, but not one instance where it can be shown to have actually friggin worked.

It's amazing to me that with all that is at stake, Obama looks ready to risk his presidency on Afghanistan!

 

D.GLADWELL

10:20 PM ET

November 2, 2009

What a mess...

I'm jumping into this kind of late, so I don't even know if anyone will see this, but...

I am a graduate student wrapping up an International Relations MA with an emphasis in National Security. I was also in the Oruzgan province from 2006-2007 with 3rd SF Group, as an advisor to the Afghan National Army (ANA). I spent time Deh Rawoud, as did Mr. Flynn, and also another volitile area in Oruzgan just to the north of Deh Rawoud. For what it's worth, I thought I would pipe in and add some credibility to his comments. It seems most of the comments are on this blog or on FP in general, are from people who think they have knowledge on the matter, but not real experience.

The ANA is a difficult entity, and an odd beast. Yes, it is made up of tribesman and soldiers from all over the country. Which is a good thing and a bad thing. And while I disagree with a small portion of his comments on a homogeneous army based on tribe, his point is valid and has merit. Simply put, the ANA is a mess; nothing less than a joke. And yes, it needs a lot of work, and will take large amounts of additional time, money, and American lives to get to where it needs to be. He is right about the army in that it's being developed to fight an external threat, which isn't the best for an internal insurgency. Some people have theorized that the heterogenous army is better in Afghanistan than the secular counterpart in Iraq, so you don't have tribal or ethnic or secular ties and mixed loyalty on a huge scale. An arguable problem on the Pakistani border with the Frontier Corps is that most of them are locally recruited and operated, and their loyalty lies with the Pashtun tribe, not the Pakistani government. So, asking them to secure a porous border is tenuous, at best, when it means they will have to fight fellow tribesmen, whether they like them or not. While he makes a good point about the locals treating the ANA like a "foreign force" I would rather find a way to keep the army integrated and project the image of a unified country, and accept that fall-out, rather than run the risk of continually infiltrated army units.

However, the corruption in Karzai's own family is a good argument to keep warlords out of the fight. Afghans are notorious for switching sides for whoever they see as the next possible or current winner. That's why warlords are so unreliable, and have their own shady business practices and methods. It's almost as if we are willing to truly accept the cliched "lesser of two evils" far too often, in order to win our fight there. Furthermore, his point about the other factions still holds weight, that we often forget. Some of those got there by being warlords, so shouldn't that make us scratch our heads a bit when it comes to using them?

Perhaps his best point of all:

"At what point do we finally admit that we are fighting an enemy that will never align its interest to those of Coalition forces and our host-nation allies? Clearly then, to defeat the insurgency we have to eliminate the insurgents. The notion that we can today somehow align ourselves with a moderate Taliban that tomorrow will not realign itself with the same fanatics with whom it's been fighting all these years is ridiculous."

We are soldiers. Soldiers are trained to fight. Soldiers are trained to close upon and kill the enemy. If that's not what we are there for, then we need to remove the soldiers. But, if we want to beat the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, then let us do our jobs. Or, accept the fact that the Taliban will be a part of any Afghan government that is formed, right or wrong - kind of like Lebanon and Hezbollah on steroids...

 

Thomas E. Ricks covered the U.S. military for the Washington Post from 2000 through 2008.

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