The comments on binge drinking, social awkwardness, and living/socializing together align with my experiences as an ROTC/RA officer meeting USMA grads for the first time at my officer basic course. It was like they had been confined for four years and could finally cut loose. And they generally dressed badly.

RPM,

I generally had the same experience as you did in my interaction with USMA LTs. While there were exceptions, your description certainly described a good number of them.

While there may be some merit to the criticisms offered up about USMA graduates as junior officers, I think we risk overlooking the greater issue, that being that West Point graduates have served our country with great honor and distinction since the founding of the academy in 1802.

The best generals in the Civil War (on both sides) were graduates of West Point. The worst were the "political generals," like Benjamin Butler and Dan Sickles. In all of our major wars, a list of those leaders who produced the best results consists largely of West Point graduates. Today, the two best examples of genralship reside in the persons of David Petraeus and Ray Odieno - both West Point graduates.

It is easy to criticize West Point because of its imputed costs to produce graduates and the fact that in our current society there are few apologists for the institution of our military. I submit however that absent our service academies and the man and women they produce, our country would be significantly less secure than we are.

Let's fix any transient issues which may exist (such as the social skills issue cited) and stick with what has served our nation well for over 200 years. West Point is one of the most abiding and successful institutions of its kind in our country.

I would generally have to agree with Mr. Ricks on the lack of social acuity and the tendencies towards binge drinking among Service Academy graduates/cadets/midshipmen. However, this is largely due to issues stemming from the various administrations further reinforcing stereotypes within their cadets/midshipmen about alcohol and the "collegiate" attitude.

Being locked up for four years with little chance for outlet tends to lead us to binge drink whenever the opportunity presents itself. Whenever, there is weekend liberty or even town liberty for Firsties here in Annapolis, generally, speaking people hit the bars... and hard. i also believe we have less of a problem than our sister schools due to our proximity to a vibrant downtown area with accompanying nightlife. There is a solution to this and it doesn't require closing the Academies.

The current guidelines here in Annapolis (0-0-1-3), along with the enforcement of random and mandatory breathalyzers at the Main Gate and on deck before TAPS accountability has resulted in the opposite effect than that which was desired. Mainly, that whenever Mids don't have to come back to the Hall, they drink aggressively. A culture that further propagates itself following graduation.

The solution to these problems is allowing Midshipmen and Cadets to drink alcohol in a heavily controlled environment on base. Through habituation and general inculcation on appropriate amounts and types of alcohol to drink in varying social situations, many of these problems could be averted. This is a problem most college students have to deal with as well.

As for social awareness and general preparedness for basic life skills upon graduation, these can be averted by allowing Cadets/Midshipmen more control over their finances, outside housing (may be a problem in the more remote locations) for seniors, etc. That way there is a graduated system of increasing personal responsibility.

This is not a problem that requires shutting down the Service Academies. And again, I am marginally disturbed at your continued lack of research and knowledge. While this article was an incredible leap forward from the rest, it still does not address any information (anecdotal or otherwise) regarding the USNA, the USAFA, the USCGA, or the USMMA. Issues with one goose should not condemn the gander.

Regarding the binge drinking, I think there is a school of thought that it is during one's education phase that one gets it all out of their system. The suggestion in Ricks' quotes is that the USMAers are not getting it out of their system during their "college years" to the same degree as the ROTCies. The problem isn't the binge drinking during the education phase, it's a problem post graduation, when the person has become an officer leading others (or an adult trying to support themselves, get ahead in life, etc.)

I was a binge drinker up until . . . . almost 16 years ago. I had to quit drinking completely to stop my my binge drinking which had become a problem. I'm not suggesting that all binge drinkers have problems, but in my case, the fact that it was infrequent rather than regular masked my problem. This doesn't have anything to do with the issue at hand, but I felt I should disclose it.

Those reports seem to accurately reflect the strengths and weaknesses of an Academy education. We at USAFA have anecdotal evidence of the same things, so add another gander to the pot. Despite being told by just about every officer in our chain that we need to find a Senior NCO, grab him by the arm and say "Teach me!", we still hear about the stupid pilot trainee who demands the Chief give him a sharper salute. And while I'm honored Mr. Ricks was surprised that Academy cadets were socially awkward, gone are the days of mandatory social training and extensive interaction with groups outside the Academy. Here at USAFA, we're trying to bring it back, and there have been several optional courses I have attended (and a few mandatory briefings) on how to behave in various social settings, both formal dinner parties and around the base/office/camp. Unfortunately, this is counteracted by the cynicism written on at some length. The isolation I described is also the root of the binge drinking problem--again, USAFA mirrors USMA on that point. I was just talking with one of my classmates today how it seems Academy LTs get a disproportionate amount of the Air Force's Article 15s.

Jury is out on how to fix these issues, but we're tossing around some ideas. Some include suggestions similar to what MK Murtaugh wrote (cutting down the babysitting), but it's important to note that saying "Academy graduates are socially undeveloped because the Academy babysits them" doesn't disprove the critics' point--if anything, it supports it. Of course, I'd rather not be babysat, and I think I'd be a better officer candidate for it. Of course, the generals have a good reason to babysit us. If a student at Colorado University gets drunk and punches a cop, he gets arrested and everything's okay--hopefully he learned his lesson. If a cadet punches a cop (as has happened a couple of times in the last year), it becomes a statewide (if not national) news event. Especially since the last five or ten years have been pretty rough on USAFA's public image, the generals can hardly afford that kind of negative publicity--so they babysit.

Oh, and the intercollegiate athletes who would rather work out than actually work. They get a lot of pressure from their coaches to stay in top shape, since athleticism is how we Academies, with our generally smaller-in-height-and-weight teams can have a fighting chance. It's not an excuse, not at all, but I thought you might be interested in hearing the justification. I've seen guys come off the academic year with three inch binders from their coaches full of mandatory workout schedules. The good ones balance it, but many seem to get their priorities mixed up. (IC sports at the Academies is a whole other issue, one I'm fervently against. I believe they dilute the mission and limit personal and academic development.)

These problems and their responses do not, of course, remove the bedrock argument of whether the Academies are uneconomical. That issue still stands, and I greatly appreciate the conversation this has spurred.

(BTW, in response to some of the e-mails I am getting: I don't think length of service measures value of service. I have no problem with the guys getting out now who have done three year-long combat tours since graduating six years ago. That's a lot more blood, sweat and tears than the guy who camped out in a few nice posts in Germany from 1975 to 1995.)

I am through sticking up for you Tom. Service is honorable no matter when it occurred.

It may not have occurred to you-but that guy who served 1975-1995 ( or as I did till 2008) had their own unique set of challenges to deal with.

For example, in the Navy, while you were still dreaming of your Pulitzer Prize-I was almost getting killed while getting shot off the waist catapult in 1981 into another aircraft. Sheered off six feet of our starboard wing. Thanks to the expertise of a USNA grad PILOT- I am alive to snip at you today. Where were you while I was doing three cruises in 44 months? That does not include all the time I spent at sea doing work-ups or two months of counter narcotic operations.

Over that 20 year period I did 10 six month cruises away from home and one 8 monther. When's the last time you tried to get aboard, at night, with the deck pitching in the North Atlantic?

Now consider my roomate who went into the USAF. He was deploying back and forth to the sandbox-before most Americans knew where the sandbox was. He also had to be freezing in Korea many times and was "living the dream" while the service he loved was being gutted. During the 1980's he had buddies standing alert to be prepared to go to World War III-and other guys were flying 14 + hours to bomb Libya from England.

Consider the Marine who served during the same period. 243 of his fellow Marines got blown up in Lebanon. They deployed at sea over and over again-PLUS geared up for Grenada, Lebanon, Desert Storm, and Somalia. Yea- they had it easy.

Finally consider that Army guy you make fun of. He came on active duty during one of the hardest periods in American military history. Then, as now-he was deployed a lot and under resourced. He had leadership challenges to deal with that today's folks don't have to deal with. Drugs,racial incidents, lack of spare parts. He had to still train to be prepared to give the Soviet Union a beating it would remember for generations-while all the while, reporters where denigrating the job he had chosen to do. he had compatriots killed at the DMZ in 1976. He saw the Army grow during the Reagan years-go to Desert Storm and then get raped during the Clinton years-and a lot of his buddies went to Somalia and Bosnia. Some did not come back.

If that guy who came on active duty in 1975 could have served in 2005-most of them would have. ( and a great number did).

That comment was a cheap shot and totally uncalled for.

Someone explain the foto?

I agree that there is nothing wrong with a guy leaving when his obligated service is up-in fact "the system" needs that to happen to ensure a decent promotion rate. America benefits from that individual anyway, and the country is full of professionals in all walks of life who graduated from the Academies.

That said -I do believe the young man who makes a choice of service today has a lot more to consider in making that choice. I wish I can say I was full of idealism when I signed on-but in reality, it was because the Navy offered me a fair trade. I would get to fly and see the world, and in return I had to suit up, show up, and do what they told me. As far as I am concerned the Navy more than fufilled its end of the bargain.

Ricks trying to be cute and mock West Pointers.

Although there are some valid points brought up in this whole issue, things like that are definitely taking the low road.

BTW, should we get rid of journalists altogether??

what do they really add? we can use bloggers and other interested online freelance reporters for a fraction of the cost.

Cue picture of snobbish journalists laughing it up at a cocktail hour.

Tom, I very much appreciate your "straight-up" acknowledgement that you "put it badly" in expressing your support for a junior officer making the decision to leave after 3 tours in Iraq.

Something to consider as this discussion unfolds - as Navy's Chief of Naval Personnel not too long ago, I was very involved in the Naval Academy, our NROTC program and our OCS program. I focused on who we recruited for all three offcier accession programs, what professional knowledge we tried to impart to our midshipmen and officer candidates in three very different educational/training environments, what we were looking for in terms of the product of the overall experience and how we blended these young men and women from very different backgrounds into our officer corps.

It was easy to find much to love about all three sources of our junior officers and how they did business and just as easy to find things you really wanted to change about each of the programs. And I certainly had my views on each.

But one very important thing I came to realize is that each program - USNA/OCS/NROTC - had very unique strengths that added significantly to the overall well-being and vitality of our officer corps.
One of the great strengths of the Naval Academy is that it is a national institution that serves a national institution, our Navy. And in a democracy that has committed to an All-Volunteer force to "provide for the common defense", having a national institution with significant congressional involvement (through the appointments each Senator and Representative are allocated)at the heart of are leader-producing process is a very positive thing for the Navy and the nation.

The debate we're having on the value of the Academies is not a new one, and certainly won't be the last one, but it's one I'm not worried about.
Any institution can improve and absolutely should be expected to do so - the Academies are no exception to this expectation. We should always be pushing, questioning and prodding to ensure we get the most out of the considerable investment we make in the Academies and those we send there.
I'm confident that the answer we'll get to the question "Are they worth it?" will be a very strong "Yes!"
All the best, JCHjr

Mr Ricks, You are wrong. As much as I respect others opinions, your comments are incoherent. You claim that West Point is a waste of tax payer money. You've pulled estimates out of your ass of up to a couple hundred million to a billion dollars to run the service academies. I'd gladly like to let you know that the costs are actually the cost to run the military instillation's divided by number of cadets. Which are completely inaccurate.

The U.S has wasted more money on unnecessary military hardware such as the over hyped F-22 Raptors that I guarantee will probably never see combat. The cost/aircraft is upward of 100 million dollars.

You can't put a price on leadership. Its the leadership of the military academies and the rigor that produces the finest military officers. The service academies are the moral compass of the military. They instill values that no regular college ROTC program can ever create. At West Point, if you cheat, lie or steal, you get kicked out! No questions asked!

I can attest that West Point does suck. For the past two years I have traded my college years for ones of late nights and studying. Why do you think West Pointers go crazy when they leave?! They've been locked in a prison for four years. Would you rather they allow sex and alcohol in our barracks like our ROTC brethren have at their regular colleges? I'm sure you would be peeved if you found this out.

Their will always be socially awkward individuals at any prestigious school. That's what happened when you get really smart people who all they ever did was study in High School and never went out. Maybe West Point should offer a socialization class. I think you'll appreciate the fact that I'm normal and can hold a conversation and can relate to others. Maybe one day we can meet and have a beer or two. I'll only have a few because I don't like drinking too much.

It's easy to point your fatty finger at someone and tell them they need to change. However, I don't look at you and tell you that you need to lose weight cause your obesity is probably making America's health care costs rise. So neither should you tell me West Point is a waste of money.

-WestPointStoleMySwagger

Mr. Ricks brings up some real issues in this article. However, does he think that West Point hasn't heard these same issues before and is taking every measure to enlighten cadets to change that stereotype?

In response to Mr. Ricks resolution to get rid of the service academies:

1) Service academy graduates live the military life day in and day out before going into the "real military," whereas ROTC graduates march and take military classes maybe 2 times a week? In some instances, they go to summer training with military academy cadets and have zero idea what is going on. It's not that they make bad officers, but that they are more likely to think of their job in the military as a career rather than a profession. I don't know about you, but the "professionals" are the ones that I want leading my sons and daughters.

2) Mr. Ricks brought up the statistic that 3 out of the last 6 chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff reached their position after graduating from a ROTC program. But he didn't add that the other three were West Point graduates, or even that a majority of the chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff are Military Academy graduates. He also forgot to mention that West Point contributes 20% of new lieutenants to the Army each year. So that must mean ROTC contributes more LT's each year, yet ROTC graduates and West Pointers currently hold the same amount of chairmen of Joint Chiefs of Staff positions. Therefore, he is essentially arguing against his own point.

3) The Service Academies also provide opportunities that ROTC cadets are not offered. These opportunities, such as studying at foreign military academies for entire semesters at a time provide cadets knowledge and experiences that they will be able to contribute one day when they become members of society. Mr. Ricks said that ROTC graduates are "educated alongside future doctors, judges, teachers, executives, mayors and members of Congress." I guess he thinks that service academy graduates somehow become John Rambo once they leave the service and have no role in society. In fact, service academy graduates are some of the best in these named positions even becoming Fortune 500 Company CEOs.

So is the extra money America is paying for service academy cadets worth it? I think so but you can be the judge.

Mr Ricks seems to have done his job as a journalist and dug up every horror story there is.

What this amounts to is a clear vendetta against West Point and its graduates. How is it possible that USMA has wronged you so much that you need to go a path to try to shut it down and diminsih its graduates.

And in comparison to ROTC grads the but about getting it out of there system already...that may be true because they spent all those years leading to their commission binge drinking at colleges where that is an accpeted norm.

If all its graduates are so terrible how is it possible that most of the countries great officers, including GEN Petraous have come through here?

Bro,

Thank God someone said it. West Point is a huge problem in this country. Screw it, its a huge problem in this world. Finally, someone has the courage to to stand up for the truth. While other accomplished journalists waste their time writing about Pakistan or Africa or the financial crisis, you, sir, bravely drop sick truth bombs on us.

TS

Mr. Ricks,

As a West Point cadet about to enter his final year at the academy, I must say that this article seems fairly spot on. We are subject to seemingly nonsensical rules and are restricted in terms of how often we can leave post, wear civilian clothes, and essentially act like normal college aged students.

I am honored that you have a high enough opinion of us to be surprised about our social immaturity. I however, am not surprised at all. As a cadet platoon sergeant, my role is mainly a babysitting and adminastrative role. And myself, being a part of the so called "chain of command" have very little say in anything my platoon does. In addition, I am subject to the nonsensical rules that all other cadets are subject to even though I am part of the cadet leadership. This babying and patronizing of cadets is what leads to our immaturity when we are suddenly "cut loose."

I may not have the perspective or hindsight that a graduate has. However as a 21 year old taking 23 credit hours this semester and responsible for roughly 40 fellow cadets, I feel like I deserve to be treated like an adult. I am glad you wrote this article, hopefully cadets in the future will be treated more like the leaders and less like children.

Dear MJ,

Wow, you are really on to something here. What is your name so I can nominate you for the First Captain or something like that....you must be a Rabble Rouser because you obviously have a lot of pride in your school...

talk to you soon hopefully,

Sleepless In Seattle

How about you come out and party with me and my friends? Tell us we are irresponsible.....

Oh and by the way, I spelled Benedict the right way as it pertained to you....beneDICKt

Sleepless In Seattle

Mr. Ricks,

I wish to defend West Point from your two articles. I believe that while you are right about some things regarding West Point, that your overall assessment is wrong. I hope you will read this response knowing that I am not attempting to attack you but your arguments. I feel uniquely positioned to address your comments due to my background. Let me explain.

I am a previously enlisted West Point cadet. Prior to attending West Point I served in the US Army and before that I went to, of all things, community college. During my time as a cadet I have also gone on exchange to the Naval Academy for a semester and spent this last summer training with the British cadets of RMA Sandhurst. Most of my friends from high school enlisted, and almost all of them have gone to combat. I know people who have died in Iraq as well as some who are now permanently scared physically and emotionally from the events there. I hope this gives you an idea on what my opinions are based on.

Drinking and socialization: Allow me to start with the issues that I think you are right about. Drinking and socialization is really the only point that you make that I have no dispute with. Cadets and Midshipmen are expected to stay confined for periods of time that most of our counterparts would think is insane. Even those I know within the enlisted ranks have told me many times they could not being under such strict lock down for four years. The attitude of the academies regarding alcohol is extremely unhealthy. Those who drink at West Point and USNA are treated like criminals. Did you know it's a major conduct offense to be caught WALKING at the Naval Academy with over a .08 BAC? This is just one example of the administrations breeding an unhealthy complex regarding alcohol in their graduates. I firmly believe that the current system, and all of its firmly entrenched stigmas towards alcohol use, is the major contributing factor pushing academy graduates towards abuse in their junior officer years. This, however, is where our agreement ends.

Thinking outside the box: The curriculum at West Point is not about cookie cutter answers, officers, or thinking. There was a time that West Point did not have majors, where everyone took the same classes. These days are over and have been for quite some time. If you doubt the creativity of cadets I invite you to spend more time among them. From the literary magazine to spirit posters to critical thinking competitions such as the Interdisciplinary Competition in Mathematics. Cadets display a variety of talents and strengths. Below are two examples of cadets excelling in critical thinking excersizes of all diciplines:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/11/technology/11cybergames.htm

http://www.comap.com/undergraduate/contests/mcm/contests/2009/results/ICM-2009-Results.pdf

Community College Education: I hope this comment was out of context. To suggest that the first engineering school in America, the top rated public school and 6th overall in the nation is nothing more than a glorified community college? Mr. Ricks are you serious? Please explain your justification for this comment. Here are some reasons I think this comment is wildly off base.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/94/opinions_college08_Americas-Best-Colleges_Rank.html

http://www.princetonreview.com/UnitedStatesMilitaryAcademy.aspx

I've been to community college where I needed a waiver to take more than 18 credit hours in a semester. At West Point that's the minimum. The courses here are more numerous and more difficult than you find on ANY community college campus. I challenge you to prove otherwise.

JCS Comment: Let's establish some facts before I address this point. First of all, ROTC cadets make up 60% of all commissioned active duty 2LTs in the Army. (Source: http://www.goarmy.com/rotc/legacy_and_value.jsp)Please note that West Point contributes only 16.7% of active duty commissioned officers each year. (Source: http://www.defenselink.mil/prhome/poprep98/html/4-commission.html)

If West Point is only 17% of 2LTs yet is the single largest producer of general officers how can you possibly make the argument that the academy is underperforming? In this article you even site a source that states that "differences in military skills among sources of commission largely were not observed at the rank of captain." Isn't that reason enough to keep the academy around? If 17% of the junior officers rise to become more than 50% of the generals we must be doing something right. I think this claim was either A) Poorly researched ahead of time or B) An attempt to deceive the public while trying to prove your point. As the famous quote goes "There are lies, damn lies and statistics."

Cold War Comment: Sir your comment about the 1975-1995 group was unwarranted and I'm glad you already apologized for it. That was unnecessary and below any professional.

Cost: The taxpayer does not pay for the full "West Point experience." The operating costs for the academy are approximately 168 million dollars. Divide that by roughly 4500 cadets and you get 37,333 USD per year. Roughly 150K total. Yet the education is valued well over 200K and by some estimates 300K. Where does this extra funding come from? The West Point Association of Graduates. WPAOG directly supports all of the functions, construction, repair and needs of the Academy that the US government (read: taxpayer) doesn't pay for. (Sources: http://www.legalformsinfo.com/united-states-military-academy-usma-west-point

http://wpaog.com/)

Mr. Ricks I don't think West Point is perfect. I see flaws here every day that drive me up the wall but I won't sit here and let you attack it. The academy does have worth, it does perform above expectation and it does so regardless of who is in power and what we are being sent to do.
I look forward to your response.

A Voice Among The Rabble

Does a reporter rely on anecdotes and ignore actual facts?

What kind of a reporter tries to undermine opposing views by referencing opinions of "some"?

Reading through your articles is like reading through a comic book. I have no idea what your motivation is but you seem to leave your objectivity at the door when you take on the Academies.