Thursday, April 23, 2009 - 4:37 PM
Here is a good response from a West Point cadet. Like many, she concludes with the gotcha comment about General Petraeus. She should have read this blog yesterday. More importantly, I wish she had engaged on some of the issues I raised, such as why West Pointers often are regarded in the Army as cynical.
And here is a thoughtful comment from a cadet who asks that I note that this is his opinion, not that of the Corps of Cadets, the USMA or the Army. I am appalled by his anecdote about the basketball game at American University, which is indeed only a few miles from my house. I have some issues with many of his other points. But let him speak:
Sir, I found your article very interesting and found myself in deep contemplation. I also read the responses to your articles and your responses back. I would like to take a few moments of your time to give you another perspective from a cadet who has not only attended Pennsylvania State University but also the Military Academy Prep School or USMAPS, as well as being the son of two army officers who are both ROTC graduates but also War College Graduates.
First, I would like to challenge the cadet who is leaving and agreed with you that the academics are community college level. The cadet in question has obviously never been to a state school or any other school for that matter. In every class I took as a freshman, at Penn State, in my first semester, the class was taught by a TA and most of them only had a bachelor's degree and were working on a masters. Also, the instructors who come here not only get a master's degree but they get it from Columbia University in the field of study to which they will teach. Also, I would like to avoid ad hominum as best as possible but the cadet who is leaving after two years is either leaving for one of a few reasons: failure of academics, physical standards or Honor and Respect standards, unable to handle the stress free, lived a life style which does not reflect well upon themselves or the United States(drinking, drugs, or stupidity), came to get two free years and a good school to transfer from or they do not want to lead troops whether in the civilian world or in combat. Either way would you really want someone who doesn't want to be there to lead your troops, the one's you pay for with your taxes, into combat.
Second, the stories that instructors or some veteran students tell are extremely prevalent to our development as officers and citizens. They not only inspire us to better our selves but also humble. What you can learn from a vet now can completely change someone's outlook on life and how you function as a member of society.
Third, I think you draw a lot of hostility because many people don't appreciate what veterans have done, did or will do. Yes, we are fighting a war that many people don't approve of, we know that, but don't take it out on cadets or veterans. They are only following legal orders. One example of this actually occurred in your neck of the woods. During the American Univ., Army basketball game this spring cadets, fans and players alike were heckled after the game. After putting up a very tough stand against American, we were heckled , cursed, spit on, and taunted. I have never been so appalled in my life. Kids my age, some of which I knew, booed, taunted, and harassed us all the way out the door. All of this over a basketball game? A good basketball game at that? Yes, I know that begs the question but you must consider the way the cadets felt after that. We ask ourselves why we are doing this. And to give you an answer sir, it's because we love this country and everything it stands for. Now I know that may sound cheesy and brainwashed but there is no other reason. I do this job because what my instructors, parents, friends, family and others have done allows those students, code pink, the Westboro Baptist church and many other organizations that oppose us to say their peace. Although I may not agree with their ideas, I agree with the idea of them having the freedom of speech.
Fourth, As an army Brat (dependent) of two Army Officers who commissioned through ROTC I can tell you that you get the same ratio of bad officers out of ROTC. Many a tax dollar has been wasted on people who are divided over the most stupid things. One example I can think of is when my mother went to Airborne school. While waiting to board the plane to take her first jump two male 2nd Lt.s from Ohio State harassed her. They knew she was a Penn State grad. and razzed her accordingly but also they harassed her because she was a woman. A woman at airborne school seemed to be a big problem to them because they thought women shouldn't have been in the army at all. And these were graduates of a large public civilian school. Also my father, an Engineer officer like my mother, graduated from RPI. And while attending his officer basic course was constantly harassed by West Pointers. They talked of "Back at school" and "The long gray line" this and that. They built up West Point to be heaven but then my father quickly pointed out that his engineering degrees were accredited and theirs were not (West Point is now an accredited school).
Fifth, I would like to challenge you point sir, on the British Military Academy "Sandhurst". Yes, the Brits do have a different system. Their officers attend 4 years of university before taking a full year of military development at Sandhurst. So you are really comparing apples and oranges because they get four years of college plus Sandhurst paid for, by the government. So I don't think you can really compare the two.
Sixth, I don't think you can compare the education and cost analysis between West Point and other schools. You must first ask the question of school, How much is the tuition and cost of living, how much are the books, how much are the lab fees, how much is food at the local mart? Also you must ask about the major and its department at that school? Is the major they are choosing a specialty of the school or are they just attending the school for other reasons such as sports, parties or members of the opposite gender? For example, when visiting one of my best friends at American University who is a AROTC cadet, I asked one of his ROTC buddies what his major was and what type of ROTC scholarship he was on. His response was he was an Art major. Now sir, I know this may be a very dry question but why would an Art student go to American? Or why would my buddy be a physics major at a school that is a specialty in International Affairs and business? And to go along with that both of them are carrying full scholarships to a school that has a tuition of $15,479 per semester with a $1,000 charge per credit hour more than 17. That's over $33,000 a year without books, lab fee's, food, living expenses, which anyone who knows anything about DC knows you pay an exorbitatint amount to live there.
Seventh, going along with the point of Changing our opinions. I find your point dead on in the most case regarding the Academy. The War Collages is a different story. The stereotypical cadet at West Point is a conservative, white male, no one can deny that. Which validates your argument that our opinions are not challenged a lot but that can also be said of the ROTC cadet. Schools like American which are very actively Liberal and opionated have a single opinion in which the cadets are not challenged because they are either outcast for not agreeing and there for conform, or they, like us are not challenged because they agree with what the student body has to say.
The academy however works very hard to diversify. We have all kinds of functions that include presentations of dance, art, literature, immersion, and many other aspects including the cadet favorite, FOOD. I cannot think of a single week or day where I have not heard about a party of some kind where there would be food tasting, dance, art , etc from cadets or civilians from other countries presenting and hosting. We may not have the complete immersion like some schools because there is not much diverse culture in Highland Falls, NY. There is not a whole lot of anything but the academy now offers almost every cadet a chance to go abroad to study at other schools in other countries. Whether these immersions are for a week or for a whole semester the academy still offers the opportunity. Another thing is, all of the corps is not American. A lot of cadets are foreign and their governments pay to send them to West Point. In my company alone we have a cadet from Chad and another from Lithuania. The academy works with what it is given and does the best that it can. You can't make people apply to come here or come and stay if they don't feel comfortable.
Finally, regarding your mention of Gen. Petraus. Yes, I'm sure you know now that he is an academy grad. and instructor. But your response to one question said that he found much more worth at Princeton because of the diversity. Sir, I ask you can you really compare a PHD course load and classes with that of a Bachelor's? Sure the concepts for the area of study are the same but can a school with a graduate school be strictly compared with a four year only school? Not to discredit any schools who are only four year or have advanced level options.
I really think that your article had relevance but I think there are too many questions to call it valid because there are too many unanswered question. I could continue with this and would love to but I am a cadet and as such have other work to do. I appreciate your opinion and as a fellow democrat I can see some of the validity behind your logic. That being said most of your article I think begs the question and I don't think there is enough evidence to support either as a definite right or wrong."
For this cadet and all those inviting me to spend a day, week, month, or year at West Point, here is an article I wrote about the place 12 years ago. It was indeed a crucible of leadership for Col. Hallums. I wonder if there is any evidence that West Point produces better leaders than other institutions.
I think I'm following your thoughts now.
Sometimes anecdotal is factual to empirical. Statistics lie.
v/r
Major Michael Few
I was at the Patriot League tournement game at AU against Army. Now while I am not sure if this is the game the cadet is referring to, but at that game I did not witness anything unusual. The one exception was at one point a group of cadets decided to go directly in front of the AU student section and do push ups in a tuanting manner. The reaction from the students was rather harsh, as it would be for any visiting fans taunting the home teams students.
While I would not excuse any excesses, the description presented even at face value (which again I did not not see any such examples) does not show hostility towards the military. Rather it shows fairly typical examples of hostility at sporting events towards the visiting fans.
As a longtime reader and fan of your work, I find your dismissive response to West Point cadet Tianyi Xin very disappointing.
I lean more toward your opinion on this matter, but your only engagement of this young cadet's compelling, heartfelt argument is really just to say she ought to have crossed the fabric of space/time to read a post you made eleven hours after her article was published?
What about West Point's response?
Good day, Sir. I found your article entertaining, and contrary to my experience in 18 years of service in several hostile fire zones. I was commissioned through the Officer Candidate School after becoming a senior non-commissioned officer, and while my opinions may be dismissed as anecdotal, I believe them as valid as those of anyone else cited on your webpage.
I have had the honor and privilege of serving under and beside many USMA graduates, and to demonstrate my bias, am married to one. Both of us have met a great deal of success in our careers and have been recognized as above our peers consistently.
Currently, we are both attending the same graduate school, and I am able to observe daily the quality of her analytic ability and capacity to learn new information. She is easily the best student in my program, and I attribute much of the academic ability she carries with her to what she learned at West Point. This academy graduate has demonstrated success and a warm intelligence in training environments, various staff jobs, and command in Iraq; she is now excelling once again in an academic environment. She is not much different than those USMA graduates I have had the good fortune to serve with.
Perhaps I am overlooking it, but I do not see posted West Point's response to your article. As a courtesy, I repost here in the format that I received it:
From the Director of Communications at West Point:
"As the Director of Communications at West Point, I feel compelled to respond. The cost to educate a student at a service academy is approximately the same as at any of the top tier universities, but the value is far greater than the cost.
Our diverse nation needs diverse higher education opportunities and the service academies provide a unique experience that strengthens our nation.
We provide not only 20% of the Army's second lieutenants, but also 60% of the officers with hard science degrees-and our Army needs those skills.
Furthermore, our cadets, faculty and staff are actively engaged in supporting the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and West Point itself is a beacon of excellence that people around the country, indeed around the world, see as an example of all that is best in America: a truly national, egalitarian institution with a true belief in the values of duty, honor, country. I am not a graduate of West Point, but I don't want to live in an America without a West Point.
Mr. Rick's article has 6 specific arguments to address:
Point 1. "service academies [are] more than twice as expensive as taking in graduates of civilian schools ($300,000 per West Point product vs. $130,000 for ROTC student)."
Rebuttal 1. A more accurate figure for the 4 year experience here is $202,000, which is equivalent to the 4-year cost of graduating a student from any of the country's top-tier universities . . . and those students generally take more than 4 years to graduate. And college and universities across the nation also receive funding from federal and state governments.
An accurate cost comparison takes a lot more analysis than shown in this op-Ed.
P2. "On top of the economic advantage, I've been told by some commanders that they prefer officers who come out of ROTC programs, because they tend to be better educated and less cynical about the military."
R2. I can't address this specifically, as this is his personal anecdotal evidence, but this has not been my experience in 29 years in the Army-and I was commissioned through Univ. of Mass. ROTC.
P3. "Too often they're getting community-college educations."
R3. Nothing against the many fine Community Colleges, but in the past year alone, three national organizations have ranked West Point in the top 10 of all 4,000 colleges and universities in the nation:
. Forbes.com ranked West Point as the sixth best college or university in America as well as the most "surprising" pick-surprising even Mr. Ricks apparently . . . and West Point finished ahead of his alma mater, Yale . U.S. News and World Report says West Point is the "Top Public Liberal Arts College" [the Naval Academy was second] and has the fifth-best "Undergraduate Engineering Program" in the nation.
. StateUniversity.com said West Point was the sixth best in the nation, behind only Stanford, MIT, Princeton, Cornell, and CalTech. (Again ahead of Mr. Rick's Yale.) Furthermore, in the past century West Pont graduates have been awarded more than 80 Rhodes Scholarships, 4th most in the nation behind only Harvard, Yale and Princeton. Just last year our Cadet First Captain Jason Crabtree was so honored.
P4. "most of West Point's faculty lacks doctorates."
R4. All of our faculty have advanced degrees, but approximately 50% are rotating faculty, active duty officers who do not have a doctorate. However, I challenge Mr. Ricks to actually walk around campuses of America's "elite"
schools and see how many undergraduate classes are being taught by teaching assistants-smart, hardworking and dedicated, but usually without even a master's degree. There are no teaching assistants at West Point and the largest class here has 18 students-the Dean has to approve any class with 19 or more students.
P5. [Send to ROTC and] "they also would be educated alongside future doctors, judges, teachers, executives, mayors and members of Congress."
R5. West Point cadets ARE future doctors, judges, teachers, executives, mayors and members of congress. While their military successes are legendary, their impact on the civilian world is just as great.
Currently, Dave Heineman is Governor of Nebraska; Rhesa Barksdale is a U. S.
judge; William Taylor, Jr. is Ambassador to Ukraine; Fletcher Lamkin is President of Westminster College; Daniel Kaufman is President of Georgia Gwinnett College; Marshall Carter is Chairman of the New York Stock Exchange; Marshall Larsen is Chairman and CEO of Goodrich; and Michael Krzyzewski is the Duke basketball coach. And 6 members of Congress either graduated from West Point or were on the faculty.
P6. "We should also consider closing the services' war colleges . . . Just ask David Petraeus, a Princeton PhD."
R6. Mr. Ricks closing example is outrageous in an article with the headline "Why We Should Get Rid of West Point" as General Petraeus is both a graduate of West Point and a member of our what we call our second graduating class, having been an asst. professor here in the mid-1980's."
Go Army,
Lisa Steptoe
Chair, Communications
AOG Diversity Leadership Council
www.theblackknights.org
to the american student/fan/PL attendee
To the person who was at the Americangame, yes, most of the heckeling was verbal but as we were leaving some little pricks decided to spit on me and the cadet who wrote the response you see above. As you can guess the little punks ran as fast as they can. However, in the spirit of the game, a few of us did get together in DC and cheered for American against Villanova. A student who saw the incident,who we met while down there, appologized and said that later a bunch of people confronted the spiters and let them know that its cool to be proud of your school and stand for something, but not disrespectful. We accepted the apology, no harm no foul.Well until we play American again and then its just good tough compition
I don't know anything about Penn State, but I do know plenty about universities like it, all over the US. We've all heard the complaint that students at these universities are taught by PhD candidates, and this does in fact happen all the time. But this person's claim that he was taught by teachers with BA degrees just doesn't ring true. Things might not be perfect, and not all students get to have professors with doctorates teach them, but a four-year university could not be accredited if it put BAs in the classroom as teachers. They just could not do it. Under some exceptional circumstances, maybe. But just "maybe."
From an American University Student and US Army Vet
I think this letter paints an unfair picture of American University. Specifically, I have a problem with two assumptions: 1. Only one view is respected politically on campus and in the classroom and, 2. Its a hostile environment for service-members or veterans.
In my first year here since getting off active duty last August I haven't experienced any instances of hostility or abuse; verbal or otherwise. The students, teachers and faculty that I have worked with have always shown me respect.
Also, we have conservative teachers and many active student lead conservative political groups on campus. My World Politics teacher last semester was a National Guard officer. And my Microeconomics teacher is a strict free marketeer. Both of these teachers shattered certain assumption that I myself had, before starting school at AU.
Don't be so quick to judge.
Is getting rid of the academy the answer?
Mr. Ricks, of course West Point doesn't produce a "better" officer. It is not a factory, and cadets are not assembly-line products. There is a wide range, just like the products of any other institution (to include Yale).
I see your point, but is the answer getting rid of the academies, or perhaps just reducing funding for them?
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