Posted By Thomas E. Ricks Share

Today I ran into an expert on Iraq who argued that I am being too optimistic, that a civil war is inevitable. He agreed that American troops are the glue holding the place together, but said that the American people will demand they be withdrawn, no matter what the possible consequences.   

Tim Boyle/Getty Images

 
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RUBBER DUCKY

7:56 PM ET

April 15, 2009

Good on us!

The American people have an uncanny sense of where our national interest lies. When all the geo-political handwringing is done, this is a distant place with but an obscure connection to our nation's security. It was a failure from the beginning and continual doubling-down won't change that.

A gentle criticism: Tom, my respect for your reporting is unbounded and your insights into this war among the sharpest. But. But you've gotten too close to the problem and too tied up with having this turn out well. It won't. It can't. Trust the wisdom of the American people. Or the wisdom of an old adage: if it feels bad, stop doing it.

 

MOTOWN67

8:57 PM ET

April 15, 2009

I would argue differently

I actually see the situation in Iraq much differently. Since the sectarian war ended in 2007 I think there is a new status quo in Iraq where many of the major issues are now being played out politically. What are my arguments for this?

1) Attacks are down 80%. Before the violence was across large stretches of the country in every region. Now almost all the attacks are in Baghdad, Diyala, Ninewa, Salahaddin and Tamim. That's mostly northern Iraq where the insurgents are using the disputes with the Kurds to portray themselves as the protectors of the Arabs. The South is almost completely devoid of violence and Anbar has hardly any incidents anymore

2) Civilian deaths are down from 2,000 a month at the height of the sectarian war down to between 250-400/month. Usually a couple mass casualty bombings account for a large number of those deaths.

3) The last several public opinion polls of Iraqis show that they are increasingly feeling safe and secure and positive about their future within their own neighborhood. When asked about the rest of the country they still have a lot of reservations and don't seem to be comfortable going out of their neighborhood. I think if sectarian tensions and violence were still high they wouldn't have those views.

4) Almost every Shiite religious holiday pilgrims are attacked with bombings and the Shiites haven't responded.

5) The Mahdi Army has largely been disbanded, and the Special Groups aren't even that active anymore.

6) Despite the government's crackdowns on Sons of Iraq in 2008 and this year, there has only been one outburst of fighting which lasted 2 days in one neighborhood of Baghdad.

7) Inter-Shiite violence is even down. The Sadrists and Supreme Council use to knock each other off quite often. That's been over for a while now.

8) The ethnic cleansing of Baghdad has been solidified by the blast walls put up by the U.S., and the end of the fighting. Very few displaced and refugees have come back as well to disrupt that.

9) Many, perhaps the majority of Sunnis have turned against the insurgency.Hence the Anbar Awakening and the various Sons of Iraq groups.

What I think you're seeing with the recent spate of bombings is not the beginning of a new wave of violence, but actually a return to what it was in the middle of 2008. In the months leading up to the Jan. 09 provincial elections, the number of attacks across the country took a dramatic drop, even in violent areas like Mosul. Deaths went down with it. Now the elections are over, and violence is going back up to what it was before.

The big potential flash point now isn't between Sunnis and Shiites or Shiites vs. Shiites but between Arabs and Kurds. The Iraqi nationalism that Maliki and others are now touting is Arab nationalism, with a decided anti-Kurd tone to them. Maliki has been pushing the Kurds since the summer of 2008, but it's been contained politically so far. musingsoniraq.blogspot.com

 

JOHNNY RICO

11:01 AM ET

April 20, 2009

Huh?

"Since the sectarian war ended in 2007"

It's over? Oh, good, I guess. Thanks for informing us. Because otherwise I would think it would still be going on. Or I wouldn't be able to figure out why 400 civilians are being murdered each month. Must be just regular violence.

"The South is almost completely devoid of violence"

The South has always been "almost completely devoid of violence."

"Civilian deaths are down from 2,000 a month at the height of the sectarian war down to between 250-400/month. Usually a couple mass casualty bombings account for a large number of those deaths."

Like I said. Safe. Right? Couple means two. Most "huge" bombings take out 30. Times two equals 60. You still have 340 to go. When you look at averages and statistics, this obviously means there is WAY more violence than you are claiming. What kind of a shill are you? Do you really think there aren't other people that follow the war to refute your bogus, disgusting spins.

"The Mahdi Army has largely been disbanded"

Who gives a shit? The American Army disbands every 15 months when it rotates.

Try telling the truth. It will save lives, money, and time.

 

QUANG X. PHAM

1:06 PM ET

April 16, 2009

Ngo Dinh Diem says...

Same as it ever was...

 

ZATHRAS

3:43 PM ET

April 16, 2009

Actually, it's probably only

Actually, it's probably only the greatly diminished media attention being given to Iraq -- of which Tom Ricks has complained from time to time -- and the press of bad economic news that has led the American public to accept the commitment there continuing as long as it has.

Personally, I think it's foolish to argue that an Iraq in which violence of all kinds is dramatically lower than it was two years ago is in any way worse off. That's great -- and I use the word advisedly -- as far as it goes. Looked at from the standpoint of American interests as opposed to those of Iraqis, though, what's left is a massive military commitment that is less costly in terms of blood than it was in 2007 but is still about as expensive, at a time when the United States is borrowing more money to keep its government running than most Americans can even comprehend. Those who dread the return of large scale civil strife in Iraq are prone to dismiss this problem; the military, which tends not to worry a lot about how much its own operations cost, is prone to dismiss this problem.

But it's the root of the issue, not for Iraqis to be sure, but for Americans. I don't think civil war in Iraq, or at least a general civil war as opposed to localized tests of armed strength among various sectarian and political factions, is inevitable. In our current situation, the United States cannot pay just any price to keep it from happening.

 

BILL KELLER

1:50 AM ET

April 17, 2009

Wrecking the State..

Could it be that Iraq is now a failed state and no level of action or years of occupation can place it in recovery? We may have fractured it too far to save. Think Clausewitz never foresaw his vision to include an infrastructure destruction. We have been no more that expensive but non sustainable glue since the looting was permitted.

Let's leave and chase pirates at sea and ponzi and torturers at home.

 

JOHNNY RICO

11:24 AM ET

April 20, 2009

Infrastructure

A decent take on Clausewitz' take on this is Keegan's "History of Warfare."

Wasn't much infrastructure in 1815. Less during the 30 years was in 1615? to whatever. Huge wars, lots of people died in the first one, but they rebuilt quickly, not much property damage. In 1815 the only losers were the soldiers (and Moscow I guess).

The 20th century ushered in a new era of warfare... but not really... just WWII. WWI just killed a lot of soldiers. You needed mechanization to do the job right.

Russia and China then proved you didn't need a war to set records killing people.

 

Thomas E. Ricks covered the U.S. military for the Washington Post from 2000 through 2008.

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