Israel: the age of permanent war?

Posted By Thomas E. Ricks Share

Ariel Siegelman, an Israeli specialist in counterterrorism, offers the best explanation I've seen so far for what Israel was trying to do in the Gaza attack:

For almost three years [after the 2006 Lebanon war], there were no illusions; we knew that we were training for Gaza. Unlike Lebanon, we knew that when we entered Gaza, the military goals and the execution of the missions in order to reach those goals would be methodical and well-prepared.

The IDF entered Gaza with realistic goals-significantly reduce Hamas' ability to inflict damage on Israel and Israeli targets. We were told specifically that our goal was NOT to topple Hamas and was NOT to destroy all of its capabilities. Those goals would have been too difficult to achieve and would have set us up for defeat and a blow to the morale of the army and the nation. Likewise, the tactics would be unconventional. We were not to think in terms of conquest and holding territory. Concepts of front and rear lines had no place in this war. We were to frustrate and attack at the morale of the enemy, fighting much like he would fight us. The only rule was, don't fight by the rules. The IDF went in, simply to wreak havoc on Hamas without getting into any situations that could afford our enemies the opportunity to achieve anything that would resemble a victory. We were to keep them at arm's length, not attempt to engage them in combat, and use anything within our means to destroy them.

This makes tactical sense, I suppose. But I worry about its long-term implications for the security of Israel, especially the notion of not fighting by the rules, which the article doesn't really explain, but which I think if done badly could further undermine Western popular support for Israel.

He doesn't offer much hope for the future. Israel is recognizing that it is in a permanent state of war, he concludes: 

There is no such thing as winning in this new kind of war. The war is ongoing, with periods of more violence and periods of less violence, during which the enemy regroups and plans his next attack. When we feel the enemy is getting strong, we must be prepared to make preemptive strikes, hard and fast at key targets, with viciousness, as the enemy would do to us. Only then can we acquire, not peace, but sustained periods of relative calm."

I know it's easy for me to be critical sitting here in a comfortable hotel room in the eco-topia of Portland, Oregon. But that conclusion-an age of preemptive strikes in a long, twilight struggle--doesn't give me much hope for the future. Especially his advocacy of "viciousness."

IDF via Getty Images

 
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WALKING WOUNDED

11:45 PM ET

April 9, 2009

cry 'havoc', and let loose the dogs of war

I hope someone with military law background checks in here.

Scuds or homebuilt missiles aimed at area targets like an Israeli city are murder, not battle. So is artillery directed into a known refugee collection center. As I understand it, fire into a civilian occupied target is regarded as 'indiscriminate fire', a violation of the law of war, if it is known that civilians will be killed by the destruction of that target. Given the thousands of Israeli fire missions into Gaza, a large number of civilian deaths was a guaranteed outcome of the 2009 'havoc' offensive.

Israel had credible cause to arrest and kill Hamas missileers, and their leadership. By their own reports, the IDF were effective in retribution, killing scores, arresting hundreds and disrupting Hamas fire, given the single digit number of indiscriminate fire casualties that Hamas missiles inflicted over several years. El Paso suffers more overdoses and drug murders in a month than Hamas gunners inflicted in years of muffler-pipe missiles.

Homicide committed while conducting an illegal act is murder. A campaign simply to inflict havoc among the 1.4 million Gaza civilians who either support or are held hostage to Hamas leadership, that seems both disproportional and counterproductive. It doesn't fulfill the occupiers legal obligation to protect enemy civilians. Such a campaign ought to be a strategic defeat for Israel.

If it's not, it's because Olmert's timing was for political havoc, an attack on US policy, a preemption of the US administration's options. We continue to be hostage to Nuclear Israel's 40 year policy of occupation and annexation.

 

FINROD

1:25 AM ET

April 16, 2009

Agreed, this may have some drawbacks but...

Let me know when Hamas starts playing by the rules.

Don't get me wrong, Israel should try harder to protect civilians, and try not to fall into the trap of losing their moral high ground.However, I'm betting the IDF will refine their operations in the future to reduce Civilian deaths. And no, the fighting over Israel will never end.

 

HENRY PELIFIAN

9:41 PM ET

April 9, 2009

the age of permanent war?

The analogy to the United States in Iraq and probably more so to Afghanistan seems unmistakable. The Unites States government by its reckless military conduct has propelled the country into two and probably at least one permanent war or endless quagmire.

Our country ought to have been able to contain in both economic and military ways both Iraq and Afghanistan without dubious military adventures of invasion, a panicky government tantrum or simply bravado-at a high cost in lives American,Iraqi and Afghan as a result of the criminal act of 9/11. Our enemies appear to have a better grasp of the real world than our elected and appointed officials who are causing harm to our country economically, to our security and to our freedoms.

 

JEFFREYME

12:03 AM ET

April 11, 2009

Mistaken Analogies

Comparing Israel's conflict with its immediate neighbors to the United States' adventurism in Iraq and Afghanistan is ludicrous. Whichever side one takes, it is clear that Israel is engaged in a war for survival, and has been since its birth. It sit among a sea of ideological, theological and tribal enemies, many of which have explicitly stated the goal of Israel's destruction, and have directly engaged in attacks against Israel.

Neither Iraq nor Afghanistan ever attacked the United States. We now know that the Taliban were even willing to hand over Bin Laden in the aftermath of 9/11, and what indirect involvement Afghanistan had by harboring Al Qaeda, was seen as secondary to the goal of occupying Iraq, anyway.

Israel maintains no foreign bases thousands of miles away, and has attempted to negotiate with its enemies for peace, not topple their governments. Israel does not have the choice of picking up and leaving. Just where would it go?

 

MDREW

9:12 AM ET

April 10, 2009

This is damning stuff.

Can someone explain to me why Palestinians in the territories should want to be fenced off in a separate, surpassingly vulnerable and vilifiable "state" with a regionally hegemonic neighbor, armed and funded by the global hegemon, who believes their "enemy" is indigenous to your territory and has intentions toward that enemy as laid out here, rather than to be citizens of of that hegemon, protected by its laws and security umbrella and with access to its economic advantages?

One state, one peace.

 

ALLANGREEN

10:55 AM ET

April 10, 2009

realistic

"Vicious"? So what. Its as vicious as the enemy - which is the point, isn't it?

It is a very realistic approach. It is practiced by special police forces in Brazil's favellas, and by the FBI in gangland America. We're talking something approaching police measures.

There is a strategic objective - to survive, and minimize conflict. This means occasionally chopping the hydra's head.

The hydra, in this case, cannot employ the same strategy.

 

RPM

1:41 PM ET

April 10, 2009

reality check

Sounds like the truth is uncomfortable - as it often is in open societies. The idea that radical Islamic terrorist movements can be 'defeated,' that Afghanistan can be 'democratized,' that Hamas will agree to 'coexist....' these are the untruths. Instead, reality seems to be a permanent state of low-intensity conflict. That is a sustainable state for the bad guys, but extremely difficult for a democracy.

There may be no way to actually win - but the West and Israel can lose if they withdraw or show signs of weakness or indecision. Any step backward will be loudly trumpeted as victory. Simultaneously, as war is by its very nature a 'vicious' enterprise, there will be times when democracies will stray from the best of intentions in terms of individual rights and the law of war. Once again, the bad guys have no such intentions.

This brings to mind comparisons with the Cold War policy of containment. While we hated that people in Poland and Albania were not free, we never tried to change that status quo. As long as the bad guys stayed in their end of the pool life could go on. This is much harder. Much harder.

 

J THOMAS

4:13 PM ET

April 10, 2009

It looks accurate to me. It's

It looks accurate to me.

It's way too late for a one-state solution. It's too late for a two-state solution. The status quo will continue until something unavoidable disrupts it.

The question for americans is how closely should the USA be involved in this permanent war.

Should we bankroll the israeli military for the indefinite future?

Should we continue to share our military secrets with israel, when they fundamentally lack anything to make them a useful ally to us? Do we owe them permanent support because they will permanently need our assistance in their permanent war?

 

MDREW

5:02 AM ET

April 11, 2009

Wow. That's truth.

This is one of the most to-the-point comments I have ever seen on I/P. Kudos.

 

BKAPLOVITZ

1:10 AM ET

April 12, 2009

Surviving In A Post-American World (Op-Ed, The Jerusalem Post)

From The Jerusalem Post
April 9, 2009

Column One: Surviving in a post-American world

By Caroline Glick

Like it or not, the United States of America is no longer the world's policeman. This was the message of Barack Obama's presidential journey to Britain, France, the Czech Republic, Turkey and Iraq this past week.

Somewhere between apologizing for American history - both distant and recent; genuflecting before the unelected, bigoted king of Saudi Arabia; announcing that he will slash the US's nuclear arsenal, scrap much of America's missile defense programs and emasculate the US Navy; leaving Japan to face North Korea and China alone; telling the Czechs, Poles and their fellow former Soviet colonies, "Don't worry, be happy," as he leaves them to Moscow's tender mercies; humiliating Iraq's leaders while kowtowing to Iran; preparing for an open confrontation with Israel; and thanking Islam for its great contribution to American history, President Obama made clear to the world's aggressors that America will not be confronting them for the foreseeable future.

Whether they are aggressors like Russia, proliferators like North Korea, terror exporters like nuclear-armed Pakistan or would-be genocidal-terror-supporting nuclear states like Iran, today, under the new administration, none of them has any reason to fear Washington.

This news is music to the ears of the American Left and their friends in Europe. Obama's supporters like billionaire George Soros couldn't be more excited at the self-induced demise of the American superpower. CNN's former (anti-)Israel bureau chief Walter Rodgers wrote ecstatically in the Christian Science Monitor on Wednesday, "America's... superpower status, is being downgraded as rapidly as its economy."

The pro-Obama US and European media are so pleased with America's abdication of power that they took the rare step of applauding Obama at his press conference in London. Indeed, the media's enthusiasm for Obama appeared to grow with each presidential statement of contrition for America's past uses of force, each savage attack he leveled against his predecessor George W. Bush, each swipe he took at Israel, and each statement of gratitude for the blessings of Islam he uttered.

But while the media couldn't get enough of the new US leader, America's most stable allies worldwide began a desperate search for a reset button that would cause the administration to take back its abandonment of America's role as the protector of the free world.

Tokyo was distraught by the administration's reaction to North Korea's three-stage ballistic missile test. Japan recognized the betrayal inherent in Defense Secretary Robert Gates's announcement ahead Pyongyang's newest provocation that the US would only shoot the missile down if it targeted US territory. In one sentence, uttered not in secret consultations, but declared to the world on CNN, Gates abrogated America's strategic commitment to Japan's defense.

India, for its part, is concerned by Obama's repeated assertions that its refusal to transfer control over the disputed Jammu and Kashmir provinces to Pakistan inspires Pakistani terror against India. It is equally distressed at the Obama administration's refusal to make ending Pakistan's support for jihadist terror groups attacking India a central component of its strategy for contending with Pakistan and Afghanistan. In general, Indian officials have expressed deep concern over the Obama administration's apparent lack of regard for India as an ally and a significant strategic counterweight to China.

Then there is Iraq. During his brief visit to Baghdad on Tuesday afternoon, Obama didn't even pretend that he would ensure that Iraqi democracy and freedom is secured before US forces are withdrawn next year. The most supportive statement he could muster came during his conversation with Turkish students in Istanbul earlier in the day. There he said, "I have a responsibility to make sure that as we bring troops out, that we do so in a careful enough way that we don't see a complete collapse into violence."

Hearing Obama's statements, and watching him and his advisers make daily declarations of friendship to Iran's mullahs, Iraqi leaders are considering their options for surviving the rapidly approaching storm.

Then there is Europe. Although Obama received enthusiastic applause from his audience in Prague when he announced his intention to destroy the US's nuclear arsenal, drastically scale back its missile defense programs and forge a new alliance with Russia, his words were anything but music to the ears of the leaders of former Soviet satellites threatened by Russia. The Czech, Polish, Georgian and Ukrainian governments were quick to recognize that Obama's strong desire to curry favor with the Kremlin and weaken his own country will imperil their ability to withstand Russian aggression.

It is not a coincidence, for instance, that the day Obama returned to Washington, Georgia's Moscow-sponsored opposition announced its plan to launch massive protests in Tblisi to force the ouster of pro-Western, anti-Russian Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili.

And as for Russia, like Iran, which responded to Obama's latest ode to the mullahs by opening a nuclear fuel plant and announcing it has 7,000 advanced centrifuges in operation, so Moscow reacted to Obama's fig leaf with a machine gun, announcing its refusal to support sanctions against North Korea and repeating its false claim that Iran's nuclear program is nonaggressive.

Finally there is Israel. If Obama's assertions that Israel must support the immediate establishment of a Palestinian state, his declarations of support for the so-called Saudi "peace plan," which requires Israel to commit national suicide in exchange for "peace" with the Arab world, and his continuous and increasingly frantic appeals for Iran to "engage" his administration weren't enough to show Israel that Obama is sacrificing the US's alliance with the Jewish state in a bid to appease the Arabs and Iran, on Tuesday Vice President Joseph Biden made this policy explicit.

When Biden told CNN that Israel would be "ill-advised" to attack Iran's nuclear installations, he made clear that from the administration's perspective, an Israeli strike that prevents Iran from becoming a nuclear power is less acceptable than a nuclear-armed Iran. That is, the Obama administration prefers to see Iran become a nuclear power than to see Israel secure its very existence.

AMERICA'S BETRAYAL of its democratic allies makes each of them more vulnerable to aggression at the hands of their enemies - enemies the Obama administration is now actively attempting to appease. And as the US strengthens their adversaries at their expense, these spurned democracies must consider their options for surviving as free societies in this new, threatening, post-American environment.

For the most part, America's scorned allies lack the ability to defeat their enemies on their own. India cannot easily defeat nuclear-armed Pakistan, which itself is fragmenting into disparate anti-Indian nuclear-wielding Islamist and Islamist-supporting factions.

Japan today cannot face North Korea - which acts as a Chinese proxy - on its own without risking a confrontation with China. Russia's invasion of Georgia last August showed clearly that its former republics and satellites have no way of escaping Moscow's grip alone. This week's Arab League conference at Doha demonstrated to Iraq's leaders that their Arab brethren are incapable and unwilling to confront Iran.

And the Obama administration's intense efforts to woo Iran coupled with its plan to slash the US's missile defense programs - including those in which Israel participates - and reportedly pressure Israel to dismantle its own purported nuclear arsenal - make clear that Israel today stands alone against Iran.

THE RISKS that the newly inaugurated post-American world pose for America's threatened friends are clear. But viable opportunities for survival do exist, and Israel can and must play a central role in developing them. Specifically, Israel must move swiftly to develop active strategic alliances with Japan, Iraq, Poland, and the Czech Republic and it must expand its alliance with India.

With Israel's technological capabilities, its intelligence and military expertise, it can play a vital role in shoring up these countries' capacities to contain the rogue states that threaten them. And by containing the likes of Russia, North Korea and Pakistan, they will make it easier for Israel to contain Iran even in the face of US support for the mullahs.

The possibilities for strategic cooperation between and among all of these states and Israel run the gamut from intelligence sharing to military training, to missile defense, naval development, satellite collaboration, to nuclear cooperation. In addition, of course, expanded economic ties between and among these states can aid each of them in the struggle to stay afloat during the current global economic crisis.

Although far from risk free, these opportunities are realistic because they are founded on stable, shared interests. This is the case despite the fact that none of these potential alliances will likely amount to increased support for Israel in international forums. Dependent as they are on Arab oil, these potential allies cannot be expected to vote with Israel in the UN General Assembly. But this should not concern Jerusalem.

The only thing that should concern Jerusalem today is how to weaken Iran both directly by attacking its nuclear installations, and indirectly by weakening its international partners in Moscow, Pyongyang, Islamabad and beyond in the absence of US support. If Japan is able to contain North Korea and so limit Pyongyang's freedom to proliferate its nuclear weapons and missiles to Iran and Syria and beyond, Israel is better off. So, too, Israel is better off if Russia is contained by democratic governments in Eastern and Central Europe. These nations in turn are better off if Iran is contained and prevented from threatening them both directly and indirectly through its strategic partners in North Korea, Syria and Russia, and its terror affiliates in Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan.

For the past 16 years, successive Israeli governments have wrongly believed that politics trump strategic interests. The notion that informed Israel's decision-makers - not unlike the notion that now informs the Obama administration - was that Israel's strategic interests would be secured as a consequence of its efforts to appease its enemies by weakening itself. Appreciative of Israel's sacrifices for peace, the nations of the world - and particularly the US, the Arabs and Europe - would come to Israel's defense in its hour of need. Now that the hour of need has arrived, Israel's political strategy for securing itself has been exposed as a complete fiasco.

The good news is that no doubt sooner rather than later, Obama's similarly disastrous bid to denude the US of its military power under the naive assumption that it will be able to use its new stature as a morally pure strategic weakling to win its enemies over to its side will fail spectacularly and America's foreign policy will revert to strategic rationality.

But to survive the current period of American strategic madness, Israel and the US's other unwanted allies must build alliances with one another - covertly if need be - to contain their adversaries in the absence of America. If they do so successfully, then the damage to global security induced by Obama's emasculation of his country will be limited. If on the other hand, they fail, then America's eventual return to its senses will likely come too late for its allies - if not for America itself.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1238562949505&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Copyright 1995- 2009 The Jerusalem Post

 

HKEIRC

5:22 PM ET

April 10, 2009

This is Occupied Territory

Israel has not played by any rules for 40+ years. All the concern about rockets is fine however this needs to happen now.
1. Remove the settlements
2. End the siege of Gaza
3. Return the water use to the Palestinians
4. Agree to the Saudi Peace Plan
5. If the above does not happen remove all US support.

 

JEFFREYME

12:17 AM ET

April 11, 2009

All of this can be done, as

All of this can be done, as soon as the Palestinian leadership can control its own forces and cease its attacks on Israel. Why would any nation with an advantage over it's foe cede anything, until there is a clear understanding -- not just some silly 10 to 40 year "truce" -- that the violence will end and Israel will never again be attacked?

I wonder exactly what "rules" you refer to, and if you really only expect one side to adhere to them. By the way, Israel has not been "playing"; you choose an odd term to describe the actions of a nation which lives every day with its survival at stake.

 

J THOMAS

12:37 AM ET

April 11, 2009

Why would any nation with an

Why would any nation with an advantage over it's foe cede anything, until there is a clear understanding -- not just some silly 10 to 40 year "truce" -- that the violence will end and Israel will never again be attacked?

This isn't a discussion about what israel should do. We have to accept that zionists gotta do whatever zionists gotta do.

This is a discussion about what the USA should do about israel's permanent war. Should the USA provide permanent unconditional support? Or should we do something else?

 

JEFFREYME

1:18 AM ET

April 11, 2009

Your comments reflect a truly

Your comments reflect a truly strong animus against Israel, one which I do not believe is shared by the majority of U.S. citizens. You made your point, I made mine. Then you went a little ballistic.

 

FSUCESAR

5:43 AM ET

April 11, 2009

The majority of U.S. citizens

The majority of U.S. citizens do not know anything about the history of Israel and why there is conflict. All they know is what they see on tv, that a terrorist group named hamas shoots rockets at Israeli citizens...but not the conditions to which the normal non "terrorist" Palestinians live. They do not know about the settlements being forged in the West Bank or about the wall being built to block aid the West Bank, while stealing land in the process...or the economic realities presented to normal Palestinians...

I used to think just like you. Poor Israel struggling to survive. Battling three nations at the same time in '67 and '73, brilliant military tactics, bravely during struggles against terrorism. But then I started to research and figure out what was really going on. Its not WHAT is going on, but WHY. Israel is the strong nation, militarily speaking, so if they really wanted to make peace a reality, it would happen. The surrounding nations know what the deal is, like it or not, Israel is here to stay...now what about the fate of the Palestinians??? Nation or permanent house arrest???

 

THOMASFIORE

5:43 AM ET

April 11, 2009

You're right that the term Zionist is often used as a pejorative

but he does have a point that US foreign policy should be it's own. Looking at the situation from a purely self interested standpoint, we need to be sure that it's in our country's best interest to walk hand in hand with Israel as they pursue such a nasty course that they deemed to be the best way to survive in their hostile environment. The price that we are paying for our support of Israel has been becoming progressively greater and the benefits have been diminishing. There may be a time in the future when the US will come to feel that after more than a half century of unflagging support that it has become time for Israel to carry its own load.

 

FSUCESAR

5:48 AM ET

April 11, 2009

The more we unconditionally

The more we unconditionally support Israel at no costs, meaning who cares what they do GO Israel, the more we have to lose. The more Israeli actions are directly tied to the U.S. We need to take a step back and put both parties in check. Halt all aid to both Israel and the Palestinian territories until both parties come to the table with the desire to really work out a solution.

 

JEFFREYME

1:31 AM ET

April 12, 2009

I would disagree with you on

I would disagree with you on two counts. Number one, we have always pursued our own interests in the region, whether its our government's aid and support of Saudi Arabia, Iraq in its war with Iran, support of the Afghanistan mujahideen against the Soviet Union, etc. Our support of the Shah in Iran dates back to our backing for the British overthrow of an Iranian democracy based on fears about control of oil. I think this discussion could benefit from clarification regarding just what we think are our interests are in the region. Number two, the main price we are paying in the region, I believe,comes directly from the actions of the Bush administration over the last decade, particularly our invasion of Iraq. I also think our government compounded the problem by dismissing the importance of working to solve the Arab/Israeli conflict and encouraging the right wing in Israel by example, as well as by policy.

I have many qualms with Israel's actions, but whether it has had a left or right wing government, the Arab and Palestinian leadership appears to pursue the same strategy. I sincerely question whether it lies in our nation's interest to pressure Israel without being able to extract guarantees from the Palestinians -- the Saudi peace plan may have some merits, but the Saudi's will not enforce it -- that they will honor a permanent peace settlement with Israel.

 

FSUCESAR

3:33 AM ET

April 13, 2009

I agree that number one, we

I agree that number one, we have always pursued our own interests in the ME. But my problem begins with the unconditional support of an ally that does not bring anything to the table except negative consequences. What does this alliance give us? An ally in the ME? Israel is a liability more than an ally. They bombed our intel ship in 1967, have accepted stolen secrets from us, cost us 2.5 billion/year in aid, and do whatever they want to do in the region with no consequence. This new Israeli government now talks about not caring about a two-state solution and even want to swap land that has Israeli settlements in the West Bank with Arab-Israeli town, essentially stealing West Bank land and expelling Arab-Israeli's. If Israel came to the table with a fair solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, or the willingness to actually sit down and work a solution out, then the Palestinian leadership would have no choice except to sit down and work something fair out or look extremely foolish and lose all credible grievances, just like how we now have a president that is willing to sit down and talk with Iran, they can not bash us because there is no rhetoric to bash, but look extremely foolish asking President Obama to apologize for past "wrongs". The problem is that Israel is happy with the status quo. Someone has to be the "better man" and step up to the plate really wanting peace.

 

WALKING WOUNDED

11:55 PM ET

April 11, 2009

the existential struggle myth

Re jeffrey's 'survival' assertion:

Israel's survival has not been at risk since its conquests of 1967. It proved that in 1973, by threatening to go nuclear, rather than withdraw from occupied Sinai and end its Suez Canal blockade. This according to Kissinger.

Israel is the only regional nuclear power in the ME, with overwhelming conventional forces. It was capable of neutralizing Soviet aid back then, and Iranian aid today. Its survival is not threatened by workshop built missiles, improvised launchers for 4" artillery rockets, or Scuds. During the Hamas missile campaign, which I regard as criminal/murder, Israel inflicted 30:1 lethal retribution, plus hundreds more imprisoned. Hardly an impotent response.

What is strategically at risk today is Israel's 40 year campaign to drive Palestinian inhabitants from occupied old Jeruselem, and the occupied 2/3rds of its belt where many Gaza families came from.

Such a 'lebensraum' campaign of occupation settlements would be expected to excite armed resistance, with all the brutality of assymetric war, in most lands. Including ours. When the city of LA used bribed courts and marshalls to sieze water rights in the 1930's, Owens Valley farmers responded with a hundreds of dynamite attacks. When Federal troops imposed military govt on southern states, some citizens responded with nightriders and murdered collaborators.

Israel has a right to secure borders. Seizing Arab land and water is not the way to get them. Neither is hijacking US policy and electoral politics. Israel is where you go to vote for Israeli policy. Not Washington.

We don't allow zealots to attack Castro's regime from our shores, and we shouldn't be funding Isreali zealots willing to war for an expanded 'eretz Israel'. Sovereign Israel needs to stay within Israeli borders, if they want to enjoy a special relationship and security guarantees with America.

 

HKEIRC

12:14 AM ET

April 12, 2009

These are the rules

Below you can read a summary of the main rules of occupation.

* Civilians shall be treated as protected persons (article 4 IVGC and article 47 IVGC). They are entitled to respect for their person, their honour, their family rights, religious convictions, and traditions. They shall be treated humanely and never be discriminated against (article 27 IVGC).
Read more about protected persons
To ICRC and Article 4
To ICRC and Article 27
To ICRC and Article 47

* Forcible transfers and deportations of civilians into the territory of the occupying power or any other country are prohibited. Nevertheless, civilians may be evacuated from a given area if the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Civilians who have been evacuated shall be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area have stopped (article 49 IVGC).
To ICRC and Article 49
* The occupying power shall not deport or transfer members of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies (article 49 IVGC). This means that settlements are prohibited. The occupying power cannot confiscate land in the occupied territory for the sole purpose of establishing settlements for its nationals. The occupying power also has the responsibility to preserve and maintain the demographic and social configuration of the occupied territory, which may entail restricting even voluntary migrations.
* The occupying power may not force protected persons to serve in its armed forces; moreover, pressure or propaganda aimed at securing voluntary recruitment is prohibited (article 51 IVGC).
To ICRC and Article 51
* Protected persons may only be instructed to perform such work as is necessary to meet the needs of the occupation army, or to provide public utility services, or for the feeding, sheltering, clothing, transportation, or health of the population in the occupied territory. No one under the age of 18 may be instructed to perform work (article 51 IVGC).
* Penal law shall remain in function within the occupied territory, unless those laws threaten the safety of the occupying power’s forces or collide with the international law of occupation. The occupying power may issue new penal laws, however, they must be issued in the language of the occupied state and may not be retroactive in effect (article 64 IVGC).
To ICRC and Article 64
* Collective punishment is prohibited (article 50 of the Hague Regulations of 1907). The Fourth Geneva Convention clearly prohibits the occupying power from punishing a group for the actions of individuals if the group members are not jointly responsible. No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed, and “collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.” (article 33 IVGC).
To ICRC and Article 50
To ICRC and Article 33
* Taking of hostages is prohibited (article 34 IVGC).
To Article 34
* Detention - “If the occupying power considers it necessary, for imperative reasons of security, to take safety measures concerning protected persons, it may at the most, subject them to assigned residence or to internment.” (article 78 IVGC).
To ICRC and Article 78

Civilian internees are protected in a similar way to prisoners of war (POW). The internees should be treated humanely, fundamental judicial guarantees, such as not guilty until proven guilty in fair trial, and by a competent court, right to know the reason for the detention, right to a legal counsel (article 32 IVGC, article 43 IVGC, article 72 IVGC, article 76 IVGC).
To ICRC and Article 32
To ICRC and Article 43
To ICRC and Article 72
To ICRC and Article 76

The fundamental judicial guarantees are stated in article 75 of the First Additional Protocol (IAP), which reflects international customary law. They are also found in various human rights treaties, such as the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.
To ICRC and Article 75
To the UN and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

 

BKAPLOVITZ

1:21 AM ET

April 12, 2009

What's The Impediment? (By Martin Peretz, TNR's "The Spine")

From The New Republic's "The Spine" Weblog:
April 6, 2009

What's The Impediment?

By Martin Peretz

I hold no brief for Avigdor Lieberman, not at all. I have already characterized him as a neo-fascist, and a neo-fascist he is. What's more he is an utterly reckless person, and the weird parliamentary system -too democratic by half- encourages the recklessness of Israeli politicians for many of whom it is by now habitual, perhaps even by now almost generic or genetic.

Today, another loudmouth, Gilad Erdan, minister of the environment, about which he knows roughly nothing, also took to the bullhorn and proclaimed that Israel is not America's 51st state. Believe me, that is not the issue in America's politics where, on the left wing margins, at least, the question is whether the United States is a satrap of the Jewish state. It is a false issue. But at a time when the country is overwhelmed by burdens at once domestic and international it would be wise and apt for Israeli politicians actually to appreciate (and to express that appreciation) for the unyielding military and diplomatic support provided Jerusalem from Washington.

This does not mean that Israel's political class has to fall into line behind every step that the Obama administration takes. But, to be fair, my own sense is that the administration is walking delicately between its ideological presumption that it can engage with reckless states and chiliastic movements and still maintain the country's strategic alliances with kindred democratic allies. I suspect that these are inevitably more divergent paths, and that this divergence will face the president with many wrenching dilemmas. If one can judge by AfPak, he will take the historically sanctioned path.

And, by the way, no, it is insufficient for Obama to say that Al Qaeda will not be conciliated by anything Israel does to palliate the Palestine question. Israel's enemies are Hezbollah and Hamas, Syria and Islamic fanatics spread through every Arab country, including Jordan and Egypt, two vulnerable states themselves beset by religious insurrectionists. Does Obama really believe that the great swath of Muslim hatred for Jews is amenable to a diplomatic solution?

In any case, Bibi Netanyahu is not Lieberman or the callow Erdan from his own party. Netanyahu knows what the stakes are which means that he understands that a "two-state solution" is the only possible resolve for the conflict. And the fact is that, all of the injunctions put before before Jerusalem by the various peace professionals about this solution notwithstanding, the Israeli body politic is itself committed to such a resolve. That has been Israeli policy for at least 16 years. It is a gross lie to deny this. The Greater Israel movement is dead. So is the Peace Now movement that assumed a territorial retreat will resolve everything. This movement died the day after Israel left Gaza.

The outstanding cartographical issues are mostly symbolic and procedural.

So what is the impediment?

It is that Israel cannot assume that any territory from which it withdraws will remain peaceful. What is the evidence that it would? Do you really think that rockets and missiles will not be lobbed into Israel proper on the morning after? And that Palestine's frontier with its Arab neighbors will not become what Gaza's frontier with (relatively well-intentioned) Egypt has become. A cease-fire was made, and the cease fire has not held. What's more, the smuggling of trajectiles and other weapons through the tunnels of the strip goes on unabated. This is despite a United Nations resolution. And in southern Lebanon another cease-fire resolution providing for an end to smuggling from Iran and Syria to Hezbollah is continually violated. One lesson Israel has certainly learned is that U.N. Security Council resolutions are worth less than the paper on which they are printed.

Until this issue is addressed conscientiously and practically there will be no progress on the two-state solution under any borders. And, instead of repeating the two-state shibboleth, it is time for the well-intentioned brokers -President Obama included- to confront the real barrier to peace which is Palestinian and Arab behavior after an Israeli withdrawal. This will be the test, and nothing else.

--Posted By Martin Peretz, April 06, 2009

The New Republic © 2007 - 2008.

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_spine/archive/2009/04/06/what-s-the-impediment.aspx

 

MDREW

4:19 AM ET

April 13, 2009

Don't post Spine columns here

Link to it if you must. But Peretz is a ridiculously contentious figure for you to go around posting his diatribes in full text on other prominent public intellectuals' blogs. That is juvenile. We all know where to find Marty Peretz's views if we want them. You're a moron.

 

BKAPLOVITZ

1:24 AM ET

April 12, 2009

Obama Speaks Of Compromise (By Martin Peretz, TNR's "The Spine")

From The New Republic's "The Spine" Weblog:
April 7, 2009

Obama Speaks of Compromise

By Martin Peretz

President Obama was a big hit in speaking to a group of students in Istanbul this morning. He did not pander and he did not speak in cliches. It's been a long time since we've had a president who speaks clearly but with complicated thoughts and in nuanced words.

He took on the intricate issues that affect Turkish-American relations, and there were no sweet promises. Again the assembly seemed to appreciate his candor.

And he added a significant trope to his discussion of the long and wearying conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians. The trope that he added to the palaver was "compromise." When the tiresome peace processors speak of negotiations they almost always mean concessions by Israel: territorial concessions, concessions on Jerusalem, demographic concessions, symbolic concessions, economic concessions, security concessions, historic concessions, moral concessions, concessions to Palestinian pride and to Palestinian shame. There is no concession that Israel has not tried, in one way or another, to meet. And there are forces in Israel which think that too much has already been forfeited. Of course, Palestinian expectations rise with every concession from Israel.

So that the notion, enunciated by the American president almost for the first time, that there are concrete concessions that the Palestinians have to make is almost a new phenomenon. The "land for peace" formula is a bankrupt idea. It doesn't work. What everybody needs but not everybody yet needs is "peace for peace."

The question then is: what must the Palestinians give up to secure tangible possibilities for statehood?

Yes, I know that there is much that they must accomplish among their to really become a nation and have a history as a people. But, whether we gloat or weep about these deficiencies, that's not our business. There are plenty of states that rule over populations that are neither a nation nor a people. I suspect that the Palestinians won't be the last of this unfortunate formula.

But since President Obama has put the idea of reciprocity on the table he is morally obliged to begin to make a list. And so is George Mitchell and Tony Blair and the busily intrusive European Union. The idea that Israel will give up a series of strategic advantages for recognition of its flag is nonsense.

--Posted By Martin Peretz, April 07, 2009

The New Republic © 2007 - 2008.

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_spine/archive/2009/04/07/obama-speaks-of-compromise.aspx

 

WALKING WOUNDED

12:22 AM ET

April 13, 2009

National Review soapbox?

Peretz is articulate, and already has TNR as forum to make his points. Posting a pair of professional op-eds (entire) from Mr. Kristol's neocon flagship, and an even longer piece from the right wing J-post, is pushing it.

A link and maybe a tease (or your two cents) to raise interest should suffice. Unless the intent is to hog bandwidth.

 

FORLORNEHOPE

5:51 PM ET

April 10, 2009

Lord Manchester's Dilemma

So Israel is setting itself up for the dilemma that Lord Manchester posed to Cromwell. The King only had to win once. For a further historical comparison look at the last western attempt to settle Palestine. The Franks lasted about 200 years. Every time the locals developed a modus vivendi some fanatics came from Europe to stir up trouble. Eventually the neighbours got their act together under the Kurd Saladin. The rest as they say is history. If Israel pursues permanent struggle, the only thing that is certain is that one day it will lose. Perhaps it has gone too far for a one state or two state solution to work. We can only wait and see.

 

JEFFREYME

7:04 PM ET

April 11, 2009

You are being disingenuous by

You are being disingenuous by substituting your term "pursu[ing]" permanent struggle for what the author wrote --"recognizing" the state of permanent war. The radical Palestinian leadership has consistently claimed to be in a permanent state of war against Israel, ending only when Israel no longer exists.

I am constantly amazed how many critics of Israel polemicize based on the premise that The Arabs and Palestinians are an innocent party to this conflict, and would never do anything bad unless those evil Zionists forced them to do so.

If neither a one-state nor two-state solution will work, what do you propose?

 

J THOMAS

10:46 PM ET

April 11, 2009

SEP

The radical Palestinian leadership has consistently claimed to be in a permanent state of war against Israel, ending only when Israel no longer exists.

It doesn't much matter what they want, they are in no position to get it. What matters somewhat more is what the israeli government, supported by the israeli public, wants. But they don't get to have everything their way either.

If neither a one-state nor two-state solution will work, what do you propose?

I propose we arrange to help as many innocent civilians from both sides to get out as possible. If they have a place to go and they choose to stay, then it's their own choice.

Beyond that it looks important for the USA to distance ourselves from this no-win situation.

Americans have come up with a series of peace plans that have all fallen through. We can't impose peace on israel and palestine. We should wait for israel to propose a peace plan and then support it if it looks to us like it has better than say 30% chance to actually work.

Israel has the initiative about peace plans. If the israelis are solidly behind a plan we think has a good chance, we should support it the best we can. But we have no business trying to take the initiative toward peace ourselves. It isn't our war, it isn't our land, it isn't our people, it isn't our quagmire.

 

N TORONTO

6:54 PM ET

April 10, 2009

Ariel Siegelman's full article available here...

http://usacac.leavenworth.army.mil/BLOG/blogs/colloquium/archive/2009/03/24/from-lebanon-to-gaza-a-new-kind-of-war.aspx

 

ELPEDRODURO

12:19 PM ET

April 11, 2009

A new start is needed.

The world body created the Zionist state. One of the most unfair, unjust acts imaginable. How can it be considered "legal"? By what standard of morality can such a thing be allowed? The ancient doctored documents are sufficient? Why should the people of Palestine pay for the sins of the Europeans? Because they were weak, that seems to be the only "reason". Now that the world body has undeniable evidence of the mistake it made, it should retract its mandate and replace it with something fair and just and hence with the possibility to be regarded as legal. Some action which does not create a racist, intolerant, small-group-serving belligerent nation such as Israel is. A one-nation solution with democratic government respecting religious freedom and all the others is a must in that region (not a two-state perpetually warring solution) and let it evolve under democratic rule of all peoples guaranteed by the world body as a propitiation for its sins. And probably less costly in the long run.

 

J THOMAS

10:53 PM ET

April 11, 2009

A one-nation solution with

A one-nation solution with democratic government respecting religious freedom and all the others is a must in that region (not a two-state perpetually warring solution) and let it evolve

That approach did not work particularly well in kosovo, or turkey, or post-WWI germany, etc. Get two tribes who don't get along and expect them to live together peacefully under democracy? It did work for belgium. It's working pretty well for the USA, where the black population is a reasonable-size minority. But to really work, that approach needs a commitment by both sides to make it work. And currently in israel/palestine that commitment is shared by only a very small minority.

I thought for awhile that the internet would help. Individual israeli and palestinian citizens were discussing things over the internet and starting to understand each other's needs. But the internet made it too easy for palestinians to tell the world what was happening to them and the israelis mostly shut down their access. So that approach failed.

 

JOHNJOHNJOHN

7:23 AM ET

April 12, 2009

As long as the Palestinians

As long as the Palestinians continue to attack Israel and to deny its right to exist, then the Israel/Palestine conflict is not about a resistance movement struggling against an occupying force. It's either about conventional warfare between two morally equal sides, or it's about Israel fighting against a terrorist organisation.

And the one-state solution is problematic not because Jews can't get along with Arabs. Arabs already make up 20% of Israel. It's problematic because having a sizable Muslim population would ultimately compromise Israel's founding principles of equal rights, freedom of the press, etc.

And it's unfair to imply that Israel was trying to silence peaceful bloggers. The purpose was to shut down a terrorist communications network. And if the world knew more about what's happening to the Palestinians, what would they learn, exactly? Basically, that once you remove all the hardships imposed on them due to Israeli needs to respond to security threats, most of their grievances are little more than whining against perceived insults to their national pride.

How terrible is their lot, exactly? Think about it. Life expectancy in the West Bank and Gaza is 73 years. That's higher than in Egypt or Turkey!

 

J THOMAS

9:05 PM ET

April 12, 2009

As long as the Palestinians

As long as the Palestinians continue to attack Israel and to deny its right to exist, then the Israel/Palestine conflict is not about a resistance movement struggling against an occupying force.

That makes no sense. As long as israel occupies palestine then it's about a resistance movement struggling against an occupying force. How can you say it isn't?

And the one-state solution is problematic not because Jews can't get along with Arabs.

This also makes no sense. If jews and arabs could get along under a democratic government, it wouldn't be problematic.

And it's unfair to imply that Israel was trying to silence peaceful bloggers. The purpose was to shut down a terrorist communications network.

Sorry if I seemed to implyt hat israel's intention was to silence peaceful bloggers. What I meant to point out was that israel did indeed silence peaceful bloggers and the result was to reduce the chance for peace.

Life expectancy in the West Bank and Gaza is 73 years.

Do you have a cite for that?

It occurs to me that there could be room for some interesting scientific research out of this. For example, it's long been observed that rats in cages who are fed restricted-calorie diets live longer than rats that are allowed all the rat chow they want to eat. But nobody knows whether this applies to human beings. We have the start of a natural experiment. We can compare nonviolent death rates among palestinians in gaza, who are kept always on the edge of starvation, compared to the west bank where they are not. Over a period of 20 years or so we could get a definitive answer to this question.

 

JOHNJOHNJOHN

12:42 AM ET

April 13, 2009

As long as israel occupies

As long as israel occupies palestine then it's about a resistance movement struggling against an occupying force. How can you say it isn't?

A resistance movement recognises its own relative weakness. Thus, its goal is not to destroy the occupying force, but to pressure it into submitting to certain demands through nonviolent or violent means.

But by denying Israel's right to exist, the Palestinian terrorists offer zero assurance that they will ever lay down arms and respect any Israeli concessions for peace. Their message is not "free us or we will try to kill you," but "free us AND we will try to kill you."

Think about it. A true resistance movement recognises the need to understand the occupier's mind--how he thinks, what he values--in order to influence his actions. But if you read the Hamas charter, with all its blatantly false and demonic characterisations of Jews, it's pretty clear their only aim is to kill Israelis, not to force negotiations with them.

Until Hamas recognises Israel's right to exist, it is no more a legitimate resistance movement than Al-Qaeda, and its demands no less ridiculous. They are both ideologically-driven groups that can never realistically be appeased, only destroyed.

If jews and arabs could get along under a democratic government, it wouldn't be problematic.

Israel works today as a democracy for Jews and Arabs because its Jewish majority will always be able to guarantee freedom of speech and equal rights for everyone. With an Arab majority, there is always the realistic fear that they will eventually impose sharia law. On everyone.

Do you have a cite for that?

Look up "List of countries by life expectancy" on Wikipedia. It includes links to references.

I don't doubt that Palestinian life is hard and humiliating. But one thing it is definitely not is cheap. They are well taken care of by relief agencies; the world cares about their plight. That's certainly more than can be said about, say, all those African countries at the bottom of that list.

I'm not sure what more a nation of refugees with a deeply embedded terrorist culture and infrastructure can reasonably expect.

 

J THOMAS

6:33 AM ET

April 13, 2009

"As long as israel occupies

"As long as israel occupies palestine then it's about a resistance movement struggling against an occupying force. How can you say it isn't?"

A resistance movement recognises its own relative weakness. Thus, its goal is not to destroy the occupying force, but to pressure it into submitting to certain demands through nonviolent or violent means.

I think you are idealising resistance movements.

Did the french resistance in WWII have the goal to pressure the nazis into submitting to certain demands? No, their goal was to kill germans. And while they were a weak resistance force that couldn't do much more than kill scattered germans, it didn't really matter what their long-term goals were or what they'd accept if they were to get more powerful. There was not much chance that the nazis would agree to french demands while they had sufficient strength to deny them.

And the palestinians' situation is precisely parallel to that. There are various resistance movements against their occupiers, and there's no reason to think the israelis will ever agree to a negotiated settlement any more than the nazis would have.

"If jews and arabs could get along under a democratic government, it wouldn't be problematic."

Israel works today as a democracy for Jews and Arabs

If you can say with a straight face that israel works today as a democracy for jews and arabs, then you shouldn't have any trouble saying that south carolina worked in 1955 as a democracy for whites and blacks. Sheesh.

 

JOHNJOHNJOHN

7:18 PM ET

April 13, 2009

Did the french resistance in

Did the french resistance in WWII have the goal to pressure the nazis into submitting to certain demands? No, their goal was to kill germans.

First, the French were fighting a conventional war. (I already pointed out in my first post that at best the Israel/Palestine conflict could be characterised as a conventional war.) They had no illusions they could ever topple the Nazi regime with academic boycotts or inflated casualty figures. Yes, they were trying to kill as many German soldiers as possible. But the goal was to make them leave, not to destroy all of Germany proper.

Hamas's goal IS to destroy Israel. They keep saying so. And seriously, read the Hamas charter. A sample excerpt:

"The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

Sorry, but if you want to make a comparison to a civil nation defending itself against a relentlessly violent and delusional ideology, the analogy here should be France=Israel, Nazis=Hamas.

If you can say with a straight face that israel works today as a democracy for jews and arabs, then you shouldn't have any trouble saying that south carolina worked in 1955 as a democracy for whites and blacks. Sheesh.

Your reasoning being...?

I'm talking about Israel's own Arab citizens, not the Palestinians living under occupation who are technically at war with Israel.

The South in the segregationist era did its best to disenfranchise blacks. But nobody intimidates Israeli Arabs to keep them from voting. They have representatives in the Knesset, who are free to voice their solidarity with Israel's enemies. And quite a few do; check out a recent interview with Haneen Zuabi.

In the South, racism was built into the system. The same can also be said for all the autocratic Muslim regimes standing today. By contrast, Israel's laws promise equal rights for all.

 

J THOMAS

2:08 AM ET

April 14, 2009

"Did the french resistance in

"Did the french resistance in WWII have the goal to pressure the nazis into submitting to certain demands? No, their goal was to kill germans."

First, the French were fighting a conventional war.

They had lost that war when the resistance kept fighting. It was not a conventional war then.

Yes, they were trying to kill as many German soldiers as possible. But the goal was to make them leave, not to destroy all of Germany proper.

They had no compunction about killing german civilians in france, and they mostly couldn't get to germany to kill germans. Your speculations about their ultimate motives are somewhat interesting but of no consequence. Similarly your speculations about what Hamas would do if they had power which they have no chance of getting.

"If you can say with a straight face that israel works today as a democracy for jews and arabs, then you shouldn't have any trouble saying that south carolina worked in 1955 as a democracy for whites and blacks. Sheesh."

I'm talking about Israel's own Arab citizens,

Yes, so am I.

In the South, racism was built into the system. .... By contrast, Israel's laws promise equal rights for all.

What a coincidence! South carolina's laws also promised equal rights for all. "Equal but separate." Which is very much the case in israel also, is it not? Illegal to sell land to israeli-arabs. And they can't rent homes most places. They can vote for whoever they want but -- glory be! -- whoever they vote for, it has no effect on their permanent second-class-citizen status.

Of course it isn't the same thing as south carolina. It's a different set of people, different overlords and different underdogs, and the laws that promise equal rights aren't exactly the same, and so on. "History doesn't repeat itself but you can recognise the riffs."

So, are you actually trying to argue that racism is not built into the system in israel? Seriously?

 

JOHNJOHNJOHN

5:51 AM ET

April 14, 2009

They had lost that war when

They had lost that war when the resistance kept fighting. It was not a conventional war then.

Well, they continued to collude with the Allies, who were still at war. But okay, forget terminology. How about this: the French were fighting to win, and so were the Nazis. And they both knew the terms for peace would be decided by the victor. That's just how war works.

But Hamas can't have it both ways. If it's fighting to win in the manner by which France and Germany fought, then it has to accept the reality on the ground that it has already lost the war. It has no choice but to accept Israel's terms for peace, and to accept that those terms will not be in its favour. However, if Hamas is merely fighting for liberation from Israel in the manner of say, ETA, the IRA, or the Tamil Tigers, then it has to recognise that the Israelis cannot reasonably be expected to negotiate for peace until it first acknowledges their right to exist.

Since it has done neither, I am left to conclude that it's not a rational organisation, and given its tendency for violence, the civilised world has no other recourse but to destroy it.

Your speculations about their ultimate motives are somewhat interesting but of no consequence.

Well of course they're of no physical consequence; that all happened sixty years ago! I'm simply passing moral judgment, and moral judgments are all about questioning motives and intent.

Similarly your speculations about what Hamas would do if they had power which they have no chance of getting.

This is an egregious double standard. You are saying I can't take Hamas's word at face value when they tell the world time and time again that their goal is to destroy the "Zionist entity"? And yet you claim that "there's no reason to think the israelis will ever agree to a negotiated settlement" when the Israelis certainly DID agree to negotiate in 2000 at the Camp David Summit!

And the only reason Hamas has no chance of getting any real power is precisely because of Israel's counterterrorist measures, the very same ones you seem to resent the Israelis for undertaking in the first place!

What a coincidence! South carolina's laws also promised equal rights for all. "Equal but separate."

I guess I made that one easy for you. Okay, how about this: Israel's founding principle is to be a safe haven for Jews everywhere. It also believes in basic human rights such as freedom and equality. All Western democracies adhere to these values, which is why segregation in the South and apartheid in South Africa both ultimately failed. And this is also why time and time again Israel emerges unscathed, despite all the condemnation it receives from the Muslim world and the extreme left. While the everyday words and actions of your typical Israeli may sometimes fall short of its ideals, Israel's basic laws at their fundamental core are sound and upright.

Illegal to sell land to israeli-arabs. And they can't rent homes most places.

It is not illegal to sell land to Israeli Arabs. Check your sources. There are certainly racists in Israel who will not rent to Arabs. But to say that racism is codified into Israel's laws, or that the government does nothing to fight it, is 100% false. Housing discrimination is illegal, Israeli Arabs know this, and they can and do exercise their rights without fear of reprisal, unlike blacks in the segregationist South. And they know they have plenty of Jewish allies to help them.

By the way, keep in mind that if some right-wing rabbi makes a racist declaration and calls it halakha (Jewish religious law), it is NOT binding as Israeli law. Perhaps that's the source of your confusion.

 

J THOMAS

3:23 PM ET

April 15, 2009

"Your speculations about

"Your speculations about their ultimate motives are somewhat iteresting but of no consequence."

Well of course they're of no physical consequence; that all happened sixty years ago! I'm simply passing moral judgment, and moral judgments are all about questioning motives and intent.

As a zionist, of course you disapprove of israel's enemies. Enough said.

Now the question is whether americans, who are mostly not fervent zionists, should approve of israel enough to continue to give unlimited support for expansion of settlements, blocking of humanitarian supplies to palestinians, collective punishment of palestinians, etc.

And yet you claim that "there's no reason to think the israelis will ever agree to a negotiated settlement" when the Israelis certainly DID agree to negotiate in 2000 at the Camp David Summit!

Note that before the israelis agreed to negotiate, they first unilaterally tore up an existing agreement. Surely that gave palestinian negotiators great confidence that israel would honor another agreement, if it had actually gotten agreed on.

And the only reason Hamas has no chance of getting any real power is precisely because of Israel's counterterrorist measures, the very same ones you seem to resent the Israelis for undertaking in the first place!

I don't resent them for it. In the short run it makes perfect sense for israel to continue to keep the palestinians down by whatever methods necessary. Israelis and palestinians are deadly enemies, and the only real reason for israelis not to kill off their deadly-but-helpless enemies is that the rest of the world would disapprove. During WWII the germans didn't care about the world's disapproval and look what happened to them....

If I was israeli it would be a moral dilemma for me. The more israel does to attack palestinians the more palestinians will hate them, but palestinians won't stop hating israelis if israelis ease off slightly. And there isn't enough water for both. Yes, I'd find it a moral dilemma. But luckily I am not israeli and I don't have that dilemma. It's Somebody Else's Problem. My problem is that my own government gives unconditional support to israelis who do terrible things in their dilemma, and it costs me. My government has borrowed Somebody Else's Problem and we have no slightest beginning of a hope of an idea for a solution.

Who to blame for the original problem is not really my concern. My concern is that there is clearly no acceptable solution but my government is committed to supporting a particular nonsolution, namely whatever israeli politicians and generals choose for the short-term.

 

JOHNJOHNJOHN

5:56 PM ET

April 15, 2009

As a zionist, of course you

As a zionist, of course you disapprove of israel's enemies. Enough said.

I disapprove of them not because they are enemies of Israel, but because they don't share my Western values of freedom of speech, equal rights for women, due process, etc. The more they embrace these values, the less they will see Israel as an enemy. It can be a win-win game.

unlimited support for expansion of settlements

The settlements are not unlimited, the land is obtained legally, and in theory they should be able to live in peace there, as Arabs do in Israel.

blocking of humanitarian supplies to palestinians,

Israel allows enough aid to get through. It is disingenuous to pretend that Israel's actions have nothing to do with security concerns.

collective punishment of palestinians,

Collective punishment means not destroying an entire village to kill one terrorist. It doesn't mean that Israeli soldiers must needlessly risk their own lives to save those of enemy civilians living among terrorists.

the only real reason for israelis not to kill off their deadly-but-helpless enemies is that the rest of the world would disapprove.

Not to mention that Israelis themselves would be against it, and you know that.

But luckily I am not israeli and I don't have that dilemma. It's Somebody Else's Problem.

Somalia was also Somebody Else's Problem. Somalia just became Our Problem. The Middle East is our problem, and Israel is our ally there. That doesn't mean we should support them unconditionally, and America doesn't. But to pretend that America isn't acting in her own best interests when she does defend Israel--and that somehow a small group of influential Jewish lobbyists and politicians continues to hijack American foreign policy, and the world would be a perfectly peaceful place if the West could just see that the Arab world's demands are perfectly reasonable--is downright absurd.

 

J THOMAS

9:34 PM ET

April 15, 2009

"As a zionist, of course you

"As a zionist, of course you disapprove of israel's enemies. Enough said."

I disapprove of them not because they are enemies of Israel, but because they don't share my Western values

Sure, sure. This is why you disapprove of tibetans? And all african nations? This is why you disapprove of china and taiwan? North and south korea? Oh well, you can claim whatever you want about your motives, it isn't worth arguing about.

"unlimited support for expansion of settlements"

The settlements are not unlimited, the land is obtained legally, and in theory they should be able to live in peace there, as Arabs do in Israel.

Silly. US support for expansion of settlements is almost unlimited. We pay for expanding the settlements and we sometimes grumble that it shouldn't happen but we go right on paying.

"The land is obtained legally"! And of course when the nazis sterilised polish and czech women and forced them into prostitution for the german army, they did so legally too. They paid the women a salary and everything. Everything was done legally by nazi laws. When israel expropriates private property in the west bank for settlements, bulldozing whatever is already there, it's similarly legal by israeli law.

"collective punishment of palestinians,"

Collective punishment means not destroying an entire village to kill one terrorist. It doesn't mean that Israeli soldiers must needlessly risk their own lives to save those of enemy civilians living among terrorists.

Collective punishment by israelis means among other things that when a suicide bomber killed himself, the israelis destroyed his father's house, or his sister's house, or maybe his cousins' houses. They couldn't punish the guy who killed himsel so they punished somebody else.Surely you knew this.

Somalia was also Somebody Else's Problem. Somalia just became Our Problem.

Not much, mostly it's a media issue.

The Middle East is our problem, and Israel is our ally there.

Israel is one of our bigger problems in the middle east. You say that israel is our ally, but that isn't at all true. Israel is not our ally. We are israel's ally. It doesn't go both ways.

Not to say that our problems will disappear when israel does. It doesn't work that way. Like, the nazis were a big problem for practically everybody but the survivors didn't find they had no problems left over after the nazis were gone.

 

JOHNJOHNJOHN

7:57 PM ET

April 13, 2009

An additional

An additional observation:

there's no reason to think the israelis will ever agree to a negotiated settlement any more than the nazis would have.

Except that they did, in 2000 at the Camp David Summit.

 

J THOMAS

5:45 AM ET

April 14, 2009

Well, no. "Let's don't and

Well, no.

"Let's don't and say we did" applies.

 

KENNETH SORENSEN

1:45 PM ET

April 12, 2009

Americans you are much too nice

What is needed is a hard-nosed approach towards the worlds last colony, and you need to spell out that it should be closed. Very few people want to hear that their country should be closed, and it is in this psychological way that the israelis and their supporters should be dealt with.

Furthermore they should be told that their colony have absolutely none reason-d'etre. And the little moral high-ground they may have had (something about their suffering in WW2) have long ago been forfeited by their arrogant and ruthless behaviour towards the indigeneous peoples of the region.

Power elite from Imperial Russia

Most of the power elite comes from Imperial Russia, and have no blood-relationship whatsoever to the ancient Jewish tribes, which also existed there 2000 years ago, rendering no value today to any right of 'return' (After so many years others have gained right of usage to the land).

It has a destabilising effect

But the most important argument for closing it down is its destabilising effect on world politics, and its role as the worlds number one incentive to terror. Without it, there would have been no six armed conflicts with its neighbours, no terror-campaign following the ousting of 250.000 Palestinians from the West Bank in June 1967, no terror-campaign (the hitherto most severe in World History) involving hi-jacks of aircraft on a massive scale and hostagetakings, , no oilcrisis in 1973-74, no second oil-crisis in 1979 (it would have been the first, and less severe, because it was due to hysteria about a lack of oil(triggered by the fall of the Shah in Iran), following the first), no two intifadas, no 9/11 (which had as chief motivating-factor US support for harsh Israeli policies towards the Palestinians and as second motivating-factor US troops continued presence on holy Saudi soil after Saddam had been ousted from Kuwait in 1991, despite promises given before the war to King Fahd that they would be withdrawn at the end of hostilities. The man responsible for their continued stay was the super-zionist and -lobbyist Martin Indyk , US citizen from 1993 and later US ambassador to Israel), and subsequently no invasion of either Aghanistan in October 2001 or Iraq in March 2003. And no beating of War Drums towards Iran from Israel and their despicable supporters in the US.

Americans! Dismantle the outlawed colony

Americans do yourself a favour. Dismantle the outlawed colony ASP so that the world can get peace.

 

WALKING WOUNDED

12:43 AM ET

April 13, 2009

... of Isaac and Ishmael, Jacob and Esau

S. Africa is an often-ignored model for international intervention playing a role in conflict resolution, peace and coexistence. That gives me hope for poor Palestine. But we think the last fully apartheid gov't of P.W. Botha hadn't crossed the nuclear threshold, in spite of Israeli proliferation to his die-hard racist regime. The lack of a palestinian Mandela or an Israeli de Klerk is a problem. Maybe they wouldn't (or didn't) survive, if they did exist.

Here in the contemporary world, Israel's Likud possesses an atomic Samson Option, threatening regional immolation of capitals, regardless of who attacks them. US force protection ensures that our missile radars are keeping a close eye on the folks possessing todays credible launch capability.

The only model (so far) for a nuclear power devolving it's hold on power and/or unwillingly yielding territory is the former Soviet Union. The jury is still out on whether the KGB/Putin truly folded their tent, or simply privatized, keeping the nukes and oil, and dumping the socialist pension obligations. Russian occupation of Chinese and Japanese territory is still a fact in evidence, like Israel's growing West Bank population.

The Bible stories of Ishmael and Essau are of elder (arab-ish) sons losing their inheritance to the tricky Hebrew patriarchs. It's ironic that the blood of the patriarch's, prophets, and kings runs stronger in the children of palestinian stay-behinds, than in ashkenazi returned from millenia of diaspora in Europe. To make it a word picture, the ancient children of Abe the Sumerian looked kinda like Arafat's cousins. David bin Jesse was not Michaelangelo's Italian body-builder, or a euro-macabee like Dayan, Sharon or Netanyahu, or the iconic midieval Frankish Jesus on my sunday school wall.

Israel's own sephardic jews have accused the euro-israelis of racism, even as their afro-asiatic appearance and language skills are employed by the IDF and Mossad to keep an eye on the previous tenants and other cousins.

 

JOHNJOHNJOHN

1:20 AM ET

April 13, 2009

Can we stop with all the

Can we stop with all the weird race baiting? If you know anything about Israel, in general it's the "white" Ashkenazi Jews who hold a much more conciliatory attitude towards the Palestinians. By contrast, it's the "dark" Sephardic and African Jews--whose collective experiences make them much more familiar with the hypocrisy and double standards of the Muslim world's demands--who tend to take a more hardline stance.

 

MDREW

4:23 AM ET

April 13, 2009

Modern Israel

--The Last Crusade

 

ARVAY

2:51 PM ET

April 13, 2009

drip, drip, drip

"In the past several decades, emigration (yerida) has seen a considerable increase. From 1990 to 2005, 230,000 Israelis left the country; a large proportion of these departures included people who initially immigrated to Israel and then reversed their course . . ."

. . . from Wikipedia

no rockets fall anywhere in the US and other advanced nations

 

J THOMAS

3:50 PM ET

April 13, 2009

Arvay, you appear to be

Arvay, you appear to be attributing israeli emigration to the palestinian resistance.

But consider the possibility that israel is simply a tiny stagnant community with no particular future, and people who want a future go find one.

Maybe the USA could help resolve the issue by giving permanent resident status and a good shot at US citizenship to any israeli citizen who will give up their israeli citizenship and move here. The world is not improved when israelis have no other choice where to live.

 

Thomas E. Ricks covered the U.S. military for the Washington Post from 2000 through 2008.

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January/February 2010